DIPLO: RollPlay Team contact LOG

[DeepO]

Arnelos,

I'm sorry I wasn't able to make it to chatroom yesterday, and I'll be leaving on a WE-trip today. So that's not going to be good for meeting.

However, one thing: did you read the PMs I sent to Togas? In there, there was one with the eta of techs, most of which you mention here. All the non-optional techs we either have, or plan on having soon. We will give these to you, but only after NDAs run out, of course

Other then that, there's a bit of a problem. Best tech for you to research would be espionage. Mil Trad is of no use anymore (we don't even have saltpeter), Free artistry is of no use, and communism is being researched by Vox at a better pace. The others we already have. (rep parts last turn) Espionage needs Indus as a prereq, right? If so, it may be best to wait until we can give it to you, and start on Esp after that. Or perhaps acquire it from Lego, but we do not want to sponsor Lego any more then we need.

Allow me to check this on the forum, I'll ask that someone will contact you today, but for the moment I would assume you'd better go with a taxman instead of a scientist. At least until you can get Indus, and start on esp.

DeepO

DeepO,

We just finished our research of Navigation.

We can research any of the following techs:

Music Theory
Free Artistry
Military Tradition
Industrialization
Medicine
Communism
Replaceable Parts

Of course, if you are able to give us ANY of these technologies, we would be enormously appreciative. For any that you are unable to GIVE us, please let us know who provided you these techs and I'm going to do my best to be downright annoying if I have to about trying to get some of them.

Ultimately, I'd like to do 40-turn research on something not already being researched if at all possible (or at least something GS is unlikely to receive in trade). Otherwise, there seems little point for us to even bother wasting a population point on a scientist rather than a tax collector.

Please advise on this soon. I'm holding the save until we can at least decide what to do with our research choice and whether to have a scientist or tax collector in El Paso.

Thanks.

- Arnelos

P.S. I'm going to try to be in that chatroom again today.

[DeepO]

Sorry I don't have more time to address these issues, Arnelos. Please hold off a while with trading with GoW: we want to trade that incense resource to them, but they have been not very responsive last time we asked. By trading it to them, you would 'steal' us the chance for an extra lux (they can reach more gems), and even if I know that in your case it's not nice you don't have more lux, for us it would mean a big difference in case of war. 10% of our slider is worth a lot more then 10% of yours, and you have to take that into account as well when trading lux. The tech you would be getting wouldn't cost you anything, but would cost us over 1000 gold.

I don't have the exact NDA's anymore, however I can look them up and send them to you. GoW can't be far in front of us, their 20-turn NDA's can only started 2 turns before ours at most. And I doubt that. By the time they would trade RP to you, we can give it to you, so again, this is not a good deal. And Medicine and sanitation the same.

Once we can, we will give you corp, we researched that one a few turns ago.

Sorry to be brief, could you for the moment take the 1-taxman approach, and could we meet e.g. this Sunday? I will be back from around 7pm GMT, so in case you could be present around noon your time, we should be able to meet.

DeepO,

Actually, I just conducted a lengthy chat with Master Zen of GoW in which we discussed technology issues. He believes he can convince his team to sell us 1 tech in return for Navigation (which they do not yet have, oddly enough) and a second tech in return for a swap of our incense for one of their wines (doesn't help us, but would give them an extra luxury). Furthermore, we could get 1 tech from GoW every 20 turns to renew the luxury swapping deal.

Furthermore, Master Zen seemed VERY interested in the possibility of RP Team being able to pay them for techs.

The techs which GoW says they can give to us without breaking NTAs right now are:

Military Tradition
Medicine
Sanitation
Replaceable Parts

He said that members of his team might be inclined to treat RepParts as being worth Medicine and Sanitation put together, however. We'll see.

He also mentioned that he believes their NTA on Industrialization should run out in about 7-8 turns. While I know we could already get the tech from you guys in 13 turns, it might not hurt to get it sooner IF I could start the pre-builds in time to make use of the extra turns of factory production and the difference is worth more than getting another of those techs earlier.

The two techs we REALLY need to make us more useful would be Industrialization (factories) and The Corporation (stock exchanges). Once we have those, I can get up factories in all cities and have stock exchanges up in El Paso and Monterrey quite soon (the other cities still need to finish their aqueducts, but could then build factories, cathedrals, and banks before stock exchanges).

Ultimately, howver, we really want to start churning out mil units and factories would help A LOT with that. Stock exchanges would help us send more money to you guys, paying others for tech, or rushing/shortrushing.

Speaking of short rushing, we have enough money sitting around and building up at the moment that I want to seriously look at ways we can use short rushing to improve our building program, in particular those slow-moving aqueduct builds. I'll be looking more at that probably before the next turn rolls around.

The thing I really need to get a handle on, however, is where to place priorities, because there are a lot of choices at the moment. The main area is with MONEY. Where in most areas we are woefully behind most of the planet, we at least have a respectable income for such a tiny amount of land. I can spend that money on short rushing, rushing, money to GS, saving for upgrades, or spending on buying technologies from others (Vox, GoW, or even ND... probably not Lego). If GS could help in providing some guidance on where priorities on finances would be more helpful to your own aims, that would help A LOT.

As for chatting, I really would like a chance to chat with you or with a group from GS (though you would probably be best, since you're the turnplayer right now). If we can actually set a TIME, that would be best.

The other thing we really need is more collaboration on diplomacy, since I'm going to most likely be much more diplomatically active than we've been of late. I think I may have stepped on your team's toes at least once with something I said to Master Zen tonight that I didn't even realize might have been subterfuge on your part (Industrialization, that you wouldn't give it to us yet). Perhaps some of that was in the PM you sent Togas and I can go digging for it in our forum and my apologies if I missed any of that, but I'd like some means of closer collaboration on diplomacy so we can keep our stories straight and work in tandem when messaging those beyond the alliance.

Well, that should be all for now. Thanks again.

- Arnelos

[DeepO]

Chat with Arnelos:

Session Start: Sun May 09 21:37:23 2004
[21:37] } Successfully joined #RP-GS at 9:37pm
[21:37] } Total People:1 Ops:1 Voices:0
[21:37] } Channel Modes: +
[21:37] } Created on Sunday, May 9th, 2004 at 9:40pm
[21:38] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— #RP-GS } DeepO changes topic to 'type my name when you get here, the sound will alert me'
[21:38] } DeepO changes topic to 'type my name when you get here, the sound will alert me'
[22:03] [10:03pm] Arnelos (Arnelos@2045F822.904052B7.668F306.IP) has joined. «2 people»
[22:03] [10:03pm] {Arnelos} !!
[22:03] [10:03pm] {Arnelos} DeepO
[22:03] {DeepO} hello!
[22:03] {DeepO} at long last
[22:03] [10:03pm] {Arnelos} glad you have your name on your highlight
[22:03] [10:03pm] {Arnelos} anyhow
[22:03] {DeepO} ah, was checking regularly
[22:03] {DeepO} yes... I am playing the turn now
[22:03] [10:03pm] {Arnelos} ah
[22:03] {DeepO} so any changes can be made instantly
[22:04] {DeepO} as to tech: many of the things you discussed with GoW can be given by us
[22:04] [10:04pm] {Arnelos} btw, I did a 4 gold short rush (1 shield) last turn that sped up our aqueduct in I think it was Santa Barbara by a whole turn :mad skillzzz:
[22:04] [10:04pm] {Arnelos} I've been working on planning that out, actually
[22:04] [10:04pm] {Arnelos} anyhow...
[22:04] {DeepO} and I don't know about timing, but if anything is really necessary for you, you need to go ahead, of course
[22:04] [10:04pm] {Arnelos} diplomacy stuff...
[22:04] {DeepO} yes please
[22:04] {DeepO} first things first
[22:05] [10:05pm] {Arnelos} Need to know what to do about getting us some tech
[22:05] {DeepO} it would of course be best if you improve your relationship with GoW
[22:05] [10:05pm] {Arnelos} yes, that too
[22:05] [10:05pm] {Arnelos} we would very much like to do so
[22:05] {DeepO} that in itself is the biggest motivation right now
[22:05] [10:05pm] {Arnelos} they are interested in purchasing Navigation, which would be a start
[22:05] {DeepO} as the techs are not critical
[22:05] {DeepO} yes, but as explained in the PM
[22:06] {DeepO} the lux deal they're suggesting doesn't do our alliance any good
[22:06] [10:06pm] {Arnelos} the incense you guys would like
[22:06] {DeepO} gems, I think you mean
[22:06] [10:06pm] {Arnelos} the lux deal might be worthwhile if GoW has a tech we really need
[22:06] [10:06pm] {Arnelos} and you guys are NTA-bound
[22:06] {DeepO} it is a 1000 gold deal!
[22:06] {DeepO} for 1000 gold, they can give more then that
[22:07] [10:07pm] {Arnelos} yes, we could haggle it up
[22:07] {DeepO} as to NTA: they have the same ones from Lego as us
[22:07] [10:07pm] {Arnelos} point is, if they're willing to do it and they really want the lux, we can haggle for techs
[22:07] {DeepO} and that's important
[22:07] {DeepO} well, yes, but no offense, we need the lux more then you need the techs.
[22:07] [10:07pm] {Arnelos} right
[22:07] [10:07pm] {Arnelos} agreed on that. I just didn't realize you guys needed it
[22:08] {DeepO} not right now
[22:08] {DeepO} but we need them to push further and get the geams
[22:08] {DeepO} gems
[22:08] {DeepO} as once we're on the offensive, we will need it
[22:08] [10:08pm] {Arnelos} btw... how soon can we get our hill tiles RR'd?
[22:08] {DeepO} we will lose the Lego lux
[22:08] {DeepO} hills: this turn, perhaps.
[22:08] {DeepO} I will start on it
[22:09] {DeepO} but am still doing the last of ours...
[22:09] [10:09pm] {Arnelos} the mountains are non-critical, but one of the hills tiles (I forget which) would be really useful for the SPD value of El Paso, I think it was
[22:09] {DeepO} in many cities, this would mean 1-turn rifles instead of 2-turn...
[22:09] {DeepO} wouldn't you need mines as well?
[22:09] [10:09pm] {Arnelos} yes
[22:09] {DeepO} these are a lot easier to get in between
[22:09] [10:09pm] {Arnelos} but there are already mines on the hills
[22:09] {DeepO} they only cost us 2 worker-turns
[22:09] [10:09pm] {Arnelos} no mines on the mountains yet
[22:09] {DeepO} well, I mean on the plains
[22:10] [10:10pm] {Arnelos} oh, yes
[22:10] [10:10pm] {Arnelos} I've been mining those myself
[22:10] {DeepO} ah, okay
[22:10] {DeepO} we're quite figureing out all this worker stuff
[22:10] {DeepO} well, I am at least
[22:10] [10:10pm] {Arnelos} of course, once we get our aqueducts done, I'll want to the extra food for a pop boost...then mine over tiles and use the sea and coastal tiles as the breadbasket
[22:10] {DeepO} which means sometimes 1 worker extra or less can make a big difference
[22:11] {DeepO} okay, if you got any planning on that, let me know
[22:11] {DeepO} currently, we've got close to 50 workers running around
[22:11] [10:11pm] {Arnelos} nice
[22:11] {DeepO} industrial
[22:11] {DeepO} and with rep parts
[22:11] [10:11pm] {Arnelos} the thing we need most is mines and RR's on the hill tiles
[22:11] {DeepO} okay...
[22:11] {DeepO} I'll see what I can do this turn
[22:11] [10:11pm] {Arnelos} ok
[22:11] {DeepO} otherwise that should be done next turn
[22:12] {DeepO} fortresses will come later on
[22:12] [10:12pm] {Arnelos} right
[22:12] {DeepO} no need for those right now
[22:12] [10:12pm] {Arnelos} we'll need those by the time of Amphib Assault... a ways off, thankfully
[22:12] {DeepO} further: as to defense
[22:12] {DeepO} amphib is not that far off anymore
[22:12] {DeepO} we're expecting it in something like 25 turns
[22:12] {DeepO} maybe less
[22:13] {DeepO} by that time, we will need infs on those hills and mountains of yours
[22:13] [10:13pm] {Arnelos} I was under the impression that the techs currently being researched are Steel, Refining, Communism, Espionage, Atomic Theory, etc.
[22:13] {DeepO} as well as in your cities
[22:13] {DeepO} AT and electronics are ours
[22:13] [10:13pm] {Arnelos} ok
[22:13] [10:13pm] {Arnelos} nice
[22:13] {DeepO} further we're close to finishing refining
[22:13] {DeepO} and GoW is doing Steel
[22:13] [10:13pm] {Arnelos} you guys building Hoovers, I take it?
[22:13] [10:13pm] {Arnelos} (or built?)
[22:13] {DeepO} we need them to split research later on
[22:13] [10:13pm] {Arnelos} I haven't looked at F7
[22:13] {DeepO} Hoovers: next turn it completes
[22:14] [10:14pm] {Arnelos} NICE!
[22:14] {DeepO} and don't give this info, please
[22:14] [10:14pm] {Arnelos} no problem
[22:14] {DeepO} well, it's not that important, we need factories in many cities
[22:14] [10:14pm] {Arnelos} right
[22:14] {DeepO} and the cost of Hoover (800 shields), is enough to provide for 4 or 5 power plants...
[22:14] [10:14pm] {Arnelos} seems that you guys are ahead in tech, then
[22:14] {DeepO} yes we are
[22:14] {DeepO} and we're going to keep that up for as long as possible
[22:15] {DeepO} we need it to invade Lego
[22:15] [10:15pm] {Arnelos} btw... our GPT deal runs out this turn
[22:15] [10:15pm] {Arnelos} how much do you want us to renew for?
[22:15] {DeepO} and we need to give techs to GoW, so we can both attack them with tanks
[22:15] [10:15pm] {Arnelos} lemme look at the last save
[22:15] {DeepO} gtp deal: as much as you can spare
[22:15] [10:15pm] {Arnelos} ok
[22:15] [10:15pm] {Arnelos} we have a lot
[22:15] {DeepO} right now, we've got a small treasury
[22:15] [10:15pm] {Arnelos} building our cities up has given us a lot more money
[22:15] {DeepO} but we're going to burn most of that on combustion
[22:16] {DeepO} yes, that was the plan
[22:16] {DeepO} we're lacking in the gold department
[22:16] [10:16pm] {Arnelos} we can help there
[22:16] {DeepO} and if we want to attack Lego, we're going to need all the units we can get
[22:16] {DeepO} that would be superb
[22:16] [10:16pm] {Arnelos} The only issue I'm tackling right now is scheduling shortrushes
[22:17] [10:17pm] {Arnelos} if I can still do those while sending you as much gold as we can, I will
[22:17] {DeepO} if all your cities have markets / banks, please build rifles
[22:17] {DeepO} thanks
[22:17] {DeepO} or conqs
[22:17] [10:17pm] {Arnelos} in fact... it may be better to provide 1-turn gifts rather than 20-turn deals
[22:17] {DeepO} that's fine by us
[22:17] {DeepO} the 20 turn deals are only because otherwise we need to do it every turn
[22:18] {DeepO} we would love you to be present in an invasion of Lego
[22:18] {DeepO} would that be fine with you guys?
[22:18] {DeepO} primary tasks: pillaging and firing your GA if you want
[22:18] {DeepO} primary forces: conqs, nothing else
[22:18] [10:18pm] {Arnelos} our net income, not counting us paying you, is 124 gpt
[22:19] {DeepO} wow, that's sweet
[22:19] {DeepO} we only get something like 400, after upkeep
[22:19] [10:19pm] {Arnelos} ok
[22:19] {DeepO} bpt, though is something else
[22:19] [10:19pm] {Arnelos} we've been paying Vox for certain techs such as Democracy, though
[22:19] {DeepO} yeah, but that is also something strange
[22:20] {DeepO} democracy is something we don't have
[22:20] [10:20pm] {Arnelos} oh?
[22:20] {DeepO} and won't need either
[22:20] [10:20pm] {Arnelos} interesting
[22:20] [10:20pm] {Arnelos} sticking with Republic?
[22:20] {DeepO} so once your NDA runs out, send it our way
[22:20] [10:20pm] {Arnelos} no problem
[22:20] {DeepO} yes... we're planning for war
[22:20] [10:20pm] {Arnelos} right
[22:20] {DeepO} and frankly, we need every tuyrn we can get
[22:20] {DeepO} in 12-13 turns time, we're going to mobilize as well
[22:21] [10:21pm] {Arnelos} we're currently paying Vox 5 gpt for Democracy... I think that just wore off
[22:21] {DeepO} once most essential builds are out of the way
[22:21] [10:21pm] {Arnelos} we're also paying them 5 gpt for horses... if they only knew how rich we are
[22:21] {DeepO} that's not the baddest deal either
[22:21] {DeepO} horses: stop that at first possibility
[22:21] {DeepO} you can get them for free from us
[22:21] [10:21pm] {Arnelos} we need 'em for conqs
[22:21] [10:21pm] {Arnelos} oh?
[22:21] [10:21pm] {Arnelos} you have 2 sources?
[22:21] {DeepO} yeah, but we don't need them
[22:21] {DeepO} no, only one
[22:21] [10:21pm] {Arnelos} oh
[22:21] [10:21pm] {Arnelos} ok, will do
[22:22] {DeepO} but we're not building horses
[22:22] [10:22pm] {Arnelos} lemme see when that wears off
[22:22] [10:22pm] {Arnelos} heh.. next turn
[22:22] {DeepO}
[22:22] [10:22pm] {Arnelos} that's 10 gpt freed up
[22:22] {DeepO} the moment I'll see I can send them, I will
[22:22] [10:22pm] {Arnelos} ok
[22:22] {DeepO} (2 turns, most likely)
[22:22] [10:22pm] {Arnelos} we'll need 'em for conqs
[22:22] [10:22pm] {Arnelos} Monterrey will finish a conq in 2 turns
[22:22] {DeepO} and we need conqs
[22:22] {DeepO} nice..
[22:23] [10:23pm] {Arnelos} in fact, I've got Monterrey on 3-turn conqs now
[22:23] {DeepO} also something else: as much as possible, don't disband units
[22:23] [10:23pm] {Arnelos} I can't see why we would
[22:23] {DeepO} because once the cities and hills are defended, it can still pay to have obsolete units defending flat coast
[22:23] {DeepO} well, for rushing, of course
[22:23] [10:23pm] {Arnelos} ah
[22:23] [10:23pm] {Arnelos} they're not worth it for taht
[22:24] [10:24pm] {Arnelos} we don't have enough military... we need every mil unit we can get
[22:24] {DeepO} no, but in many cases they'r not worht upgrading either
[22:24] {DeepO} agree
[22:24] {DeepO} for us the same, btw
[22:24] [10:24pm] {Arnelos} ok... next turn we should have 410 gold in the bank and an income of ~90 GPT
[22:24] [10:24pm] {Arnelos} I'll try to figure what shortrushes we need in the near future and send you guys the rest
[22:24] {DeepO} did you found the last PM, regarding NDAs?
[22:25] {DeepO} thanks
[22:25] [10:25pm] {Arnelos} no
[22:25] {DeepO} oh, and we're so far not shortrushing anything
[22:25] {DeepO} I'll try to dig it up
[22:25] {DeepO} one sec
[22:25] [10:25pm] {Arnelos} the two techs we DESPERATELY need are Industrialization and The Corporation... Replaceable Parts wouldn't hurt
[22:25] [10:25pm] {Arnelos} but we don't need RP until we massupgrade rifles to inf
[22:26] [10:26pm] {Arnelos} and cats to arty

[DeepO]

part 2

[22:26] {DeepO} poly is dead slow
[22:26] {DeepO} so this will take a while
[22:26] {DeepO} I know where to look, though
[22:26] {DeepO} techs: indus is a problem
[22:26] {DeepO} but is it really worth paying GoW for 4 or 5 turns gain?
[22:27] {DeepO} and RP: no need to, we don't have any rubber anyway
[22:27] [10:27pm] {Arnelos} heh - that sucks
[22:27] {DeepO} so that can wait until the NDA runs out (18 turns, I believe)
[22:27] {DeepO} yeah
[22:27] [10:27pm] {Arnelos} what are you going to use to invade.... just rifles?
[22:27] {DeepO} no saltpeter, and no rubber...
[22:27] {DeepO} no way!
[22:27] {DeepO} we need to get GoW to give us rubber
[22:27] [10:27pm] {Arnelos} I sure hope you have oil
[22:28] [10:28pm] {Arnelos} with all of that desert
[22:28] {DeepO} but no diplo contact has been made regarding that
[22:28] [10:28pm] {Arnelos} ah
[22:28] [10:28pm] {Arnelos} hmm.... I talk to MZ all of the time
[22:28] {DeepO} if we don't have oil, this game has turned rediciulous
[22:28] {DeepO} you know, it would be an idea if you could talk them up about this
[22:28] {DeepO} as diplomtically, we're still not shining
[22:29] [10:29pm] {Arnelos} the only liability would be that I know Togas' had a policy of wishing to obscure the EXTENT of our alliance
[22:29] {DeepO} not that I want to say our ambassadors aren't doing nice jobs, but there seem to be very little chatting going on
[22:29] [10:29pm] {Arnelos} I'm not sure how worthwhile that is at this point
[22:29] {DeepO} as to our alliance: everybody assumes total dependence
[22:29] {DeepO} which isn't true, BTW
[22:29] [10:29pm] {Arnelos} yes
[22:29] [10:29pm] {Arnelos} it is
[22:29] {DeepO} bah, not really
[22:30] [10:30pm] {Arnelos} we're going to give you our money, you guys are protecting us and providing us tech
[22:30] {DeepO} we welcome your independence
[22:30] [10:30pm] {Arnelos} lol
[22:30] {DeepO} okay, that's true
[22:30] [10:30pm] {Arnelos} well, we're going to give you guys what money we can
[22:30] {DeepO} but that doesn't keep you from leading your own lives (in the PTWDG)
[22:30] [10:30pm] {Arnelos} in a way, true
[22:30] [10:30pm] {Arnelos} point is... I'd be more than willing to run diplomacy for you guys
[22:30] [10:30pm] {Arnelos} hell... would give us something useful to do
[22:31] {DeepO} in that context, you guys have a lot more fun in chatting with other teams then we do
[22:31] {DeepO} let me ask about this in our forum
[22:31] {DeepO} I would welcome it
[22:31] {DeepO} but that's just me
[22:31] [10:31pm] {Arnelos} the only problem is that you and I would have to remain in VERY close contact
[22:31] {DeepO} and I'm far from the team, I only play turns
[22:31] {DeepO} that could be a problem indeed
[22:32] [10:32pm] {Arnelos} btw... we should be trading WMs each turn... I know you guys give us WMs, but I guess we should be giving them back
[22:32] {DeepO} well, you were
[22:32] {DeepO} I found the PM
[22:32] [10:32pm] {Arnelos} ah
[22:33] {DeepO} and am copying it now
[22:33] [10:33pm] {Arnelos} o
[22:33] [10:33pm] {Arnelos} *ok
[22:33] [10:33pm] {Arnelos} ok, thanks
[22:34] {DeepO} I'm checking if any other things are in there, somewhere
[22:34] {DeepO} (PM has been sent, btw)
[22:34] [10:34pm] {Arnelos} ok
[22:34] [10:34pm] {Arnelos} I'll get it in a bit
[22:35] [10:35pm] {Arnelos} (not on 'poly right now)
[22:35] {DeepO} anything else: just ask, like always
[22:35] {DeepO} corp won't be a problem, once we can give you indus
[22:35] {DeepO} as we researched that one ourselves
[22:35] {DeepO} so that's yours at first opportunity
[22:35] [10:35pm] {Arnelos} right
[22:36] [10:36pm] {Arnelos} how many turns until the Indus NTA is up again?
[22:36] {DeepO} oh, and for counting purposes, I'm currentyl playing 205
[22:36] {DeepO} erh... one sec
[22:36] {DeepO} until 216
[22:36] {DeepO} so you can have it on 217
[22:37] {DeepO} being 12 turns from now
[22:37] [10:37pm] {Arnelos} ick
[22:37] [10:37pm] {Arnelos} well, at least that gives time for me to set up pre-builds
[22:37] {DeepO} Medicine before then, but that won't help you at all
[22:37] {DeepO} what was the eta of GoW? it should be very similar
[22:37] [10:37pm] {Arnelos} :shrug: it's one more tech we don't have yet
[22:37] {DeepO} it's not that nice for you
[22:38] [10:38pm] {Arnelos} MZ claimed that their NTA expires before your's does because Lego gave it to them sooner
[22:38] {DeepO} but the most efficient thing to do...
[22:38] {DeepO} could be, but it could at most be 2 or 3 turns
[22:38] [10:38pm] {Arnelos} btw... I have an idea...
[22:38] {DeepO} 2, I think
[22:38] {DeepO} yes?
[22:38] [10:38pm] {Arnelos} oh, wait, that won't work
[22:38] [10:38pm] {Arnelos} nevermind
[22:38] [10:38pm] {Arnelos} stupid trade screen
[22:38] {DeepO}
[22:38] {DeepO} oh, did I responded on the WM issue already?
[22:39] {DeepO} we'll send it to you
[22:39] {DeepO} and it would be good to send yours as well
[22:39] [10:39pm] {Arnelos} right
[22:39] [10:39pm] {Arnelos} will do
[22:39] {DeepO} from time to time we check up on how the others are doing with their RRing
[22:39] [10:39pm] {Arnelos} btw, MZ is in chat right now
[22:39] {DeepO} we're very definately first
[22:39] {DeepO} MZ in chat: problem is I don't get onto 'poly
[22:40] [10:40pm] {Arnelos} GoW seemed to be doing well with RR's... Lego and ND seem well behind
[22:40] {DeepO} GoW is okay
[22:40] {DeepO} not superb
[22:40] [10:40pm] {Arnelos} yeah
[22:40] {DeepO} Lego is doing silly things
[22:40] {DeepO} like mining hills when they can mine plains as well
[22:40] {DeepO} which is a lot more effecient
[22:40] {DeepO} I mean RRing plains, of course
[22:40] [10:40pm] {Arnelos} right
[22:40] [10:40pm] {Arnelos} RR+mine on plains is pretty good
[22:41] [10:41pm] {Arnelos} only problem is food
[22:41] {DeepO} as long as they have their territory RRed once we get there, it's okay
[22:41] [10:41pm] {Arnelos} if you have enough workers, you irrigate first... build up population, then mine over it and use sea and coastal tiles for the food
[22:41] {DeepO} nothing keeps them from doing the same as us: we don't have any foodsurplus
[22:41] {DeepO} we use worker pmups
[22:41] [10:41pm] {Arnelos} right
[22:41] [10:41pm] {Arnelos} that works better if you have enough cities
[22:41] {DeepO} not really
[22:41] [10:41pm] {Arnelos} err, enough worker pumps
[22:41] {DeepO} you can problably do the same
[22:42] {DeepO} you still have one location that would benefit from a city
[22:42] {DeepO} I thought it was on the hill next to El Paso
[22:42] {DeepO} one of your unis is covering it
[22:42] {DeepO} but that can very easily be fixed
[22:42] {DeepO} and any city below size 6 can become a worker pump with RRs around
[22:43] [10:43pm] {Arnelos} you mean the incense tile?
[22:43] {DeepO} let me cehck
[22:43] {DeepO} I'm half way through production
[22:43] {DeepO} give me 2 minutes, pls
[22:43] [10:43pm] {Arnelos} ok
[22:43] {DeepO} (prolly less)
[22:43] {DeepO} much less
[22:43] {DeepO} was the last build
[22:44] {DeepO} yes, the incense hill
[22:44] [10:44pm] {Arnelos} I could use San Diego as a worker pump to fuel the growth of Santa Barbara and San Antonio once they have Aqueducts... but El Paso and Monterrey are basically maxed out
[22:44] [10:44pm] {Arnelos} well, El Paso has more room
[22:44] [10:44pm] {Arnelos} but it will just be specialists
[22:44] {DeepO} you still have some space there, right?
[22:44] [10:44pm] {Arnelos} ocean space, yes
[22:44] [10:44pm] {Arnelos} no land space
[22:44] [10:44pm] {Arnelos} using all tiles
[22:44] {DeepO} okay
[22:45] {DeepO} in that case, it would only help in commerce
[22:45] {DeepO} in general, one more city is one won, though
[22:45] {DeepO} even if it will be tiny for a while
[22:45] {DeepO} but you check it out... it was only some hint
[22:46] {DeepO} in case you want us to move for a settler, just say so, and we're gone
[22:46] [10:46pm] {Arnelos} I'll have to look at the impact on El Paso... I think that would knock the city below 20 spt until factories
[22:46] [10:46pm] {Arnelos} unless I re-worked the MM to shift some from Monterrey
[22:46] {DeepO} including mines on currently irr plains? in that case, it would not be ideal
[22:47] [10:47pm] {Arnelos} all plains within range of El Paso are already mined
[22:47] [10:47pm] {Arnelos} El Paso is completely improved
[22:47] [10:47pm] {Arnelos} correction!
[22:47] {DeepO} if the question would be either one less specialist somewhere, against an extra city...
[22:47] {DeepO} yes
[22:47] {DeepO} one more tile to go
[22:47] [10:47pm] {Arnelos} if you mine those hills, I'll pick up a few extra shields
[22:48] {DeepO} RR, right?
[22:48] [10:48pm] {Arnelos} sorry, yes, RR
[22:48] {DeepO} mining has already be done
[22:48] [10:48pm] {Arnelos} ok
[22:48] [10:48pm] {Arnelos} I hate losing one of my most productive tiles, though
[22:48] {DeepO} it wouldn't be lost
[22:48] [10:48pm] {Arnelos} that incense tile would be great for El Paso once we get factories up... once RR'd, it's even better
[22:48] {DeepO} just transformed
[22:49] [10:49pm] {Arnelos} it won't be boosted by a factory for a long time
[22:49] {DeepO} well, yes, it's your choice
[22:49] [10:49pm] {Arnelos} I'll look at it
[22:49] {DeepO} it was just something to keep in mind
[22:49] {DeepO} I don't have all the info, of course
[22:49] {DeepO} you have....
[22:49] [10:49pm] {Arnelos} the question is the extra commerce versus having those extra shields in El Paso if it matters for certain SPT totals or for after we get a factory up there
[22:49] {DeepO} in case I've got extra workers
[22:49] {DeepO} where do you want me to let them go first?
[22:50] [10:50pm] {Arnelos} Santa Barbara-9 hill was needed first
[22:50] [10:50pm] {Arnelos} (RR)
[22:50] {DeepO} SB 9... I'll try to do this right away.
[22:51] [10:51pm] {Arnelos} the other hills aren't as critical right now
[22:51] [10:51pm] {Arnelos} but eventually, yes
[22:51] {DeepO} okay..
[22:51] [10:51pm] {Arnelos} WB-8 would be nice
[22:51] [10:51pm] {Arnelos} would speed up the aqueduct
[22:51] {DeepO} well, we're looking at most at 3 turns before everything would be RRed
[22:51] [10:51pm] {Arnelos} right
[22:51] {DeepO} WB?
[22:51] [10:51pm] {Arnelos} sorry
[22:51] [10:51pm] {Arnelos} SB
[22:51] {DeepO} ah
[22:52] [10:52pm] {Arnelos} San Diego-2 would also be great
[22:52] [10:52pm] {Arnelos} same reason
[22:52] [10:52pm] {Arnelos} San Antonio-2 as well
[22:52] {DeepO} will try to do so...
[22:52] {DeepO} if you've got 10 minutes time, you can know the results
[22:52] [10:52pm] {Arnelos} once those are RR'd, then we look at mining over irrigated plains... but the TIMING will be key... I'd like to micro-manage the timing so we speed both growth and builds
[22:53] {DeepO} mining over irrigation: I prefer to do this first
[22:53] {DeepO} and we've got a surplus of workers
[22:53] {DeepO} so your workers are excellent to fill cities with
[22:53] {DeepO} no need for normal growth, if you acn avoid it
[22:54] {DeepO} we might even decide to give ou our workers, once we don't know what to do with them anymore
[22:54] {DeepO} dropped a few letters, but you know what I mean
[22:54] [10:54pm] {Arnelos} well, your workers are much more efficient than ours, I think
[22:54] [10:54pm] {Arnelos} despite us getting the Dem bonus
[22:54] [10:54pm] {Arnelos} you get RP and Ind bonuses
[22:54] [10:54pm] {Arnelos} keep 'em native for now
[22:55] {DeepO} of course
[22:55] {DeepO} only once the improvement is done
[22:55] {DeepO} the only reason you need workers is if you want to forest-deforest tiles for the bonus
[22:55] [10:55pm] {Arnelos} btw... I have a question... the timing of improvements... when you mine over a tile before us in the turn order, that means we get the tile AS MINED rather than as it was on our turn, right?
[22:55] {DeepO} (and don't tell this to anyone, but we're going to use that very extensively)
[22:55] {DeepO} yes
[22:56] {DeepO} AFAIK
[22:56] [10:56pm] {Arnelos} I thought the forest/deforst exploit had been removed in PTW?
[22:56] {DeepO} what exploit?
[22:56] {DeepO} you can only do it once per tile
[22:56] [10:56pm] {Arnelos} forest/deforst continuously... it only works the FIRST time you forest, IIRC
[22:56] {DeepO} bvut that's okay... every tile will do it once
[22:56] [10:56pm] {Arnelos} ok, right
[22:56] [10:56pm] {Arnelos} only once
[22:56] {DeepO} yes
[22:56] {DeepO} but for our territory, that's an extra 800 shields
[22:56] [10:56pm] {Arnelos} nice
[22:57] {DeepO} so... if used well, 3200 gold won on rushes
[22:57] [10:57pm] {Arnelos} very nice
[22:57] {DeepO} you also have plenty of tiles that could do this
[22:57] {DeepO} but it is even more iomportant to plan
[22:58] {DeepO} and whatch out, as some of your territory was already forested once
[22:58] {DeepO} so won't give the bonus
[22:58] [10:58pm] {Arnelos} perhaps that could be done to speed up factory builds once we're ready for that... but, then again, I have plenty of time. The only places where it would be really needed are for Santa Barbara, San Diego, and San Antonio (which have lower SPT's and not as many improvements)
[22:58] {DeepO} I think I can provide you guys with a map, but maybe you've got one yourself
[22:58] [10:58pm] {Arnelos} I could use such a map if you have one
[22:58] {DeepO} very importantly: we can't do it for you
[22:58] [10:58pm] {Arnelos} right, I know
[22:58] [10:58pm] {Arnelos} we'd have to build the workers
[22:58] {DeepO} we can't chop
[22:58] {DeepO} yes
[22:59] {DeepO} map: let me check for our first map with Vox territory
[22:59] {DeepO} e-mail address pls?
[22:59] [10:59pm] {Arnelos} arnelos@aol.com
[22:59] {DeepO} one sec
[23:00] [11:00pm] {Arnelos} btw... why do you have a galleon sitting off of our coast?
[23:00] {DeepO} ah, it was meant as protection
[23:00] {DeepO} that while you removed your portion of the sea wall
[23:00] {DeepO} we could spot possible invaders
[23:00] [11:00pm] {Arnelos} right
[23:00] {DeepO} but you were too impatient, and removed them before we were able to spot them
[23:01] [11:01pm] {Arnelos} I've got a worker up there because we have 5 and only 4 are useful at a time
[23:01] {DeepO} it has been patrolling the area for a few turns now
[23:01] [11:01pm] {Arnelos} El Paso and Monterrey both complete units in 2 turns... we can fill gaps then
[23:02] [11:02pm] {Arnelos} El Paso builds 1 rifle every 4 turns... Monterrey is at 1 conq ever 3 turns
[23:02] [11:02pm] {Arnelos} well, I gotta take off
[23:02] {DeepO} okay
[23:02] [11:02pm] {Arnelos} good to finally chat with you about this stuff
[23:02] {DeepO} found the screenshot
[23:02] [11:02pm] {Arnelos} get back to me on the diplomacy stuff
[23:02] {DeepO} let's try to keep it up
[23:03] [11:03pm] {Arnelos} definately
[23:03] {DeepO} I will
[23:03] [11:03pm] {Arnelos} I'll idle in here so I can post an altered log later
[23:03] [11:03pm] {Arnelos} cya
[23:03] {DeepO} cya!
[23:03] [11:03pm] Arnelos (Arnelos@2045F822.904052B7.668F306.IP) is now known as Arnelos_AWAY
[23:05] {DeepO} okay, just mentioning that I sent you the screen shot.
[23:05] {DeepO} I will post RR moves once their done
[23:05] {DeepO} *they're
[23:05] {DeepO} damn phonetic English of me
[23:41] [11:41pm] Quits: Arnelos_AWAY (Arnelos@2045F822.904052B7.668F306.IP) (Connection reset by peer)
[23:41] {DeepO} okay, it seems this turn is better for us to RR your territory then next, so it's done. Only tile not RR yet is the hill on SA2, but it is occupied with a cat. remove that pls, and we'll do it
[23:41] {DeepO} damn... disconnected
[23:41] {DeepO} will send you a log later on
Session Close: Mon May 10 00:00:00 2004

[DeepO]

PM to Arnie:

Hi Arnelos,

let me address your points below.

1. I sent you Navigation, our WM, and 400 gold (accepted). We are now making 85 gpt, which will increase very soon since we complete 2 aqueducts next turn and another in 3 turns after that. The additional population will be placed on coastal and sea tiles, giving us more money to send to you.

Great!

2. This leads me to ask about what to do with these cities next. Banks would increase the amount of money we could send to you or have available for our own upgrades or rushes. Military units would be nice to start building. Cathedrals would let the cities raise their populations higher without having to use specialists (probably what I'll build first before the other choices, but that still leaves what to do after that). Factory pre-builds might be good to start in preparation for receiving Industrialization.

If possible, factory prebuilds would be best. If that's too soon (as the prebuild would complete before we can give you indus), perhaps units. The sooner you will have factories, the better. Of course, this is only necessary where you have a decent spt, but I guess all your cities will be able to get 10 spt before factories, which more then justifies one. The only exception I see is if you can get a worker pump going, thus mining all possible plains, and count on that pump for growth.

3. I moved one of our catapults on the unit wall away from San Antonio-2 since that's the tile we had covered and you couldn't build an RR on. Since that city will complete its aqueduct this turn, I'd like it to have the additional shields for whatever I decide to build next there.

I'll try to fit it in. However, as your aquaduct will complete there even without the RR, we do have another turn to RR it, if that would be better from our side. Don't be alarmed if it is not done next turn, it will be done in 2 turns for sure.

4. GoW sent us Replaceable Parts, Medicine, and Wines (all unaccepted). MZ sent me a message that they'd like to make the deal for incense and Navigation. I'm inclinced, after our conversation, to turn him down. However, I did have an idea. If GoW would be willing to pay MONEY at least for Navigation, it may be valuable to accept such a deal so that our alliance has at least a little bit more money available for research.

Agreed. However, there is something else we've been discussing in forum, which might help. See below.

5. I mentioned to MZ in chat that you guys had wanted to contact them about making a deal for rubber, but that you're never in chat. I mentioned to him that since it took me almost two weeks to schedule a chat with you, I'm not surprised if he has trouble too and it might just be better to PM you. I hope that helps.

It will... CH sent him a PM on this yesterday, I think, and he hasn't responded yet... chat is difficult for us (I can't connect to 'poly, others simply never chat)

That should be all for now. Let me know about anything regarding the above or other issues you'd like to raise.

Well, there is one extra issue: we talked about RP taking some of our diplomatic stuff out of our hands in chat, and I posted that to the board. So far, the response has only been positive. It depends a bit on how far we would want to take this, so I'm certainly not in the position to just say: go ahead, and do as you please, but a lot of interesting ideas have come forward. Are you still interested in this, and would you by any chance of some kind of framework in which this works?

One idea that we've been playing with is that for instance we give you a tech to sell, and you broker it in our name. Or that we ask you to get some rubber for our alliance, and you do what you please do secure some. We're not ready yet to simply give all our diplomtic stuff out of our hands. (even if we fully agree your team is a lot better in this then we are) There are still a lot of problems to be overcome, and a lot of agreements on how we would see these things to be made (and this will not happen in one week time, I'm sure), but any input from you in this discussion would be greatly appreciated. One thing: we better get some kind of mutual agreement on this in place, before we ask other teams if they would accept it... at least to keep the public forum quiet.

DeepO

[DeepO]

PM to Arnie:

Arnelos,

now that you will have aquaducts, your cities will be at size 7 in 2 turns (1 in 3 turns). Could you give me precise numbers what would happen if we would provide you workers for growth? Please keep in mind that also means a lot of those irr. plains can be mined instantly.

I was thinking of the following:
1. you stop improving your land immediately. We can do that for you without any problem, as you've seen so far. Either you start forest-chopping tiles for the bonus, or you add your workers to your cities. Giving them to us could also work, we can use slaves for many tasks (e.g. chopping), but in that case we shouldn't improve your land, or help you when pollution strikes.

2. you give me a map with all the new mines on irr plains you want to have, and we'll take care of that. You balance it so you have 0fpt in all your cities (where possible).

So far, this should be done regardless of the rest of the plan. You growing your own pop when we still spit out 3 workers every 2 turns is nonsense, especially as we're fast running out of uses for those workers of ours.

If possible, note somewhere what kind of global spt, and gpt this will bring you.

3. Not all cities are at size 12 by now: please mention how many workers you still need to max out in tile-useage. Keep one taxmen for the moment, which should tranform in a scientist in a few turns, once we can give you Indus.

4. If you for instance need 15 workers, indicate the biggest gains workers would give you, in batches of 5 or so. So, if we give 5 workers, optimal useage of those would net an extra x spt, y gpt. 10 workers would give.... 15 workers would give...

This last point is needed to determine where our workers should be added to cities first. We also have a few cities which will gain from some more pop, But in many cases, these cities are busy building factories, and will go to units / ships, before unis or banks can be built. It is very possible that your pop is worth more then ours.

If you could give me such an estimate, we can decide, but I expect that in 2 turns time, you're going to receive a bunch of workers from us, after we improved the rest of your land. Adding those to your cities could very well get your gpt count to 150 or higher.

Would you like a scheme like this? Any changes you might see?

DeepO

[Krill]

PM to Arnelos, as yet unfinished. Could all of you tell me what I have missed please

[edit by DeepO:] Krill, mention also a date (8 turns from now?) RP doesn't keep dates in the turn format we are. And their horses come from Vox, but they previously said it was up for renewal. One last thing: maybe encourage them to sell navigation to Bob if they want to... [/edit]

Hi Arnelos,

I'm calling to inform you of Gathering Storms change in Foreign affairs program.

I'm now the Minister of foreign affairs, and I've been told to act as your contact for GS.

Now the two other items of this PM are that we are going to send you Industrialisation in turn 217(c. 1010 AD), and to update you on our plans about Lego.

At the moment we are still planning where to hit them, or even the compostition of our forces. Some people want to drop about 30 infantry onto a mountain and watch Lego commit suicide against them, while others want to use the marines to capture a city. I'll PM you again when we have the plan sorted out, and more of the team back to help out. We are leaning towards an attack with marines around Quanto mechanico, and then guuting them by taking out their FP .

We are still going to require you conquistadors for pillaging, but we were wondering where you had got the horses from? Vox? If you let the deal run its' course, we will gift you horses. The only thing we want you to do (on a separate issue) is to sell Nav to bob.

cya
- krill

[DeepO]

Togas,

just a quick message that next turn, you will receive Industrialization from us. We're not sure if there won't be another option to get it, but could you start a 1-scientist approach to espionage? There have been talks about getting the tech elsewhere (ND), but nothing has been decided yet.

The turn after, you will get Corporation, and one turn later Refining. rep Parts is not so close, and sanitation. But in case we need it, we can ask GoW if we can give it to you sooner.

update on techs: we just finished Combustion. Please build enough conqs to fill 1 or 2 boats, ready for deployment in some 20 turns. Other then that, it would be a good idea to build rifles, Lego is at worst 9 turns from Marines (GoW also something like that, but they're waiting for our techs first)

ciao,
DeepO

[Krill]

From Arnelos

1. Didn't get Industrialization this turn.

2. In terms of what we have, we will have 8 Conquistadores on 2 Galleons shortly. Until we get our Factories up (the prebuilds for which have already started), we won't have much else to offer aside from MONEY.

3. We are currently getting horses from a hanging deal of horses for a measly 5 gpt from Vox Controli. I think Togas' rationale for keeping the agreement has been that it maintains the veneer that we're going to continue to play nice with Lego/Vox. The fact that they haven't asked for any increase in the token 5 gpt sum is also interesting, considering that our actual income is at about 150 gpt right now.

Lemme know what you guys need. I'm sending money as we make it.

[Krill]

oops...

I need to be more careful in future. Where was that pm...

Krill,

Vox has offered us Communism, but their initial asking price is 500 gold. I'm of a mind to think that we can probably wait until you guys can send it to us (when your NTA wears off) rather than pay them 500g for it now (since we wouldn't even start a police station until after our factories are done anyhow).

Police Stations will help with WW under our democracy, but corruption doesn't mean anything to us, so we would only need them during wartime (since we have only 1 luxury and on the edge of maintaining order as things are now).

What thoughts do you have on the issue and have you already obtained Communism from Vox?

Sorry for the mix up.

[vulture]

Krill - should that one have been posted in this forum?

[Krill]

To RP

Arnelos and RP,

Sorry, we may have had a misynderstaning; you will now receive indus in next turn, corp after that, then refining the turn after.

We are happy for you to carry on with the horse-5gpt deal, and thank you for actually thinking about image. That is something we are really bad at

On communisum, best forget about buying it from them: they are going to need all the money they can get, and we don't want to give it to them, do we we will give it to you when the NTA wears off (in around 19 turns).

What have I missed? They will have long enough, with prebuilds, to have al their PS built. Or we could break the NTA now, and claim RP researched it themselves. what do you think?

[asleepathewheel]

why in the world are they wanting to build them. rifles rifles rifles are what they need. Any backstab by gow runs right through them...


and I would advise not breaking the NDA with vox. Its just not worth it imho. we haven't done it yet, and we don't want others breaking ours...

[DeepO]

Togas, RP was going to be yours in a efw turns anyway, but it's very good you got rubber out of the deal. You know we can't help you there. Also, the lux from ND is excellent news!

the gold isn't that much of a problem, don't worry about it. We're counting on you to get to computers before invading Lego, but 400 gold should not make the difference. (ps, GoW and ND doesn't know this yet, they think we'll invade with infs, not MIs)

news: not really, but let me confirm our invasion date with you: we should sail in 15 turns, invade in 18. We're still hoping you will join us, contributing e.g. a transport full of conqs (more always nice, of course). We're not sure how the war is going to progress, and if we would gain land for both of us there, but let's see that when we get there.

Oh, as you have seen, we've stopped our full sea wall, as it was of no real use anyway. the rifles on your hills will be replaced by infs soon enough (in 2 turns, most likely). You do have one cat blocking a hill, please let us fort it first.

DeepO

DeepO,

We didn't send any gold this turn with our WM.

We are undergoing an upgrade project to get rid of our obsolete catapults. It's rather costly.

For the next 4 turns we won't be sending you 100g.

If this is a problem, please let us know. We can scale it back to 50g over 8 turns, perhaps. Just let us know.

Also note: We purchased rubber (and Replaceable Parts) from GoW for Navigation. We have also bought 3 luxuries from ND for a paltry GPT sum.

--Togas

p.s. And let us know if there's any news

[DeepO]

Togas, we're definately going to keep you up to date on techs, currently we're waiting for the NDA on steel to run out. Once that happens, we can advance you 3 or more techs. (should be soon, don't know when exactly)

Also, we've send you SM this turn, Lego got it last one. Maybe something else: we mobilized last turn, and next turn will get tanks...

arts will be useful, however I'm not sure if they would be useful for you: given the situation, it would be very hard for you guys to keep a city there, so also have little use for defenders. Without those, they're easy prey for Lego.

Maybe, and this is only a very rough idea, could you give them to us? I think we're going to have to declare war one turn or another, to give you oil (for transport upgrades). It could be exchange time for a couple of arts as well (not all)

Oh, while we're at it: don't trust GoW too much. keep your defenses checked, think 4 or 5 infs minimum in the reachable ports. GoW is currently weak to us, and thay will most likely stay so for some time to come, so they shouldn't try too much, but still... it's very possible MZ is trying one of his evil plans again.

DeepO

Understood about the seawall. Now that railroads are in place, the move makes perfect sense. We'll be pulling all of our cats into our cities for upgrades, so that final hill should be open shortly.

Regarding the invasion: We have enough 2 boatloads (4 units) of Conquistadors already, we can probably contribute 3-4 boatloads by invasion time. Our factories are almost finished and we plan to continue mass producing Conquistadors very shortly. We can also contribute artillary to the cause if they'll be of any use.

We're going to plan for 15 turns. As the time approaches, please send us the tech for transports and give us a rally point to send our troops. With transports we'll be able to fit in more units.

--Togas