MSS, you are up

[ManicStarSeed]

This is the work in progress.... Feel free to modify and polish a bit... I will sign of on it shortly...

Mss

Nations of the world:
As the Minister of Diplomatic Affairs, I am deeply saddend that this is the route that Vox has chosen to take regarding our once private peace negotiation. GS will not be held hostage to Vox's apparent attempt to bully us (in the public forum) into a policy contrary to what we have already adopted. GS has been forthcoming in it's decision that we are no longer willing to share our contenent with Vox.

Please allow me to clarify the situation.
First when Vox approached us for Peace, we stated very clearly that
1) We seek an unconditional surrender from Vox, that means peace on our terms. AND
2) Hostilties will continue until we reach a final agreement.
Beta said that Vox understood the message. I still have the PM.
When we asked whether Vox would leave the continent for peace and in response , we recieved the peace proposal outlined in Betas first post.
Let it be known that Gathering Storm REJECTS the proposal, (no matter how “reasonable” it seems) in favor of our conditions for peace - a Vox exodus from our continent.
Jon Miller has PMed us (before this slur campaign) and stated there were some errors made and that Vox is planning an exodus. Gathering storm Considers this a major break through. We sent a brief message to Vox outlining a portion of what we expect, then this thread appears and negotiations have now stalled.
Before ANY of you judge Gathering Storm in the way we conducted ourselves or what we ask in terms of peace we ask you…
Are YOU willing to have Vox as a neighbor and share a border with them? Speak up, please…
Do the other nations want Vox to survive? Let us know…We really want to know. Currently, They are the only nation to actually eliminate a team so far. Assuming we all want Vox to survive…Let the world answer this question… Will you be willing to share your land mass with Vox? We are not. BUT….here is what we were willing to do to insure the survival of Vox…
Gathering storm is (was) willing to give up to 12 turns of cease fire where we observe Vox disbanding their remaining military to pay for galleys and settlers to load up and leave. Vox may maintain a small military (during the exodus but not in cities) to protect their new settlements. We were willing to provide some techs and resources while they re-established free of charge. Granted they never learned of these details because they chose to smear us in public before we negotiated a final deal.

Let me address some other grievous issues raised
Yes, we made an amphibious landing in Vox’s Core because WE ARE AT WAR folks. No treaty was “signed.” “Hostilities will continue until peace is finalized”
Beta said that Vox moved (5) not-so immortals off a mountain in good faith. These troops were down to 1 or 2 hp each. Gathering Storm says disband them if it there was good faith, not move them to threaten our workers. Also we were going to ask the these forces be disbanded as part of any agreement, you know the unconditional one....

For Vox to claim foul is wrong. Just because they started this war, what gives them the right to expect that they can dictate the terms in which it ends. We expected a proud honorable foe, not this.

ManicStarSeed,
Minister of Diplomatic Affairs
Gathering Storm.

[Arrian]

MSS - I have to say that I prefer the line-item approach. It's more focused.

Your version isn't bad, don't get me wrong, but it's a little bit disorganized.

-Arrian

[ManicStarSeed]

Feel free to edit the above... I have to earn my keep here at work.

I really want to defend less and use this as an opportunity to get what we want.... Global buy off to eliminate or relocate Vox. Lets use this stunt to our advantage...

We can post it in a bit... I read the all the other stuff, and I do not have the time (or the brain power) to derive synthisis of it all.

If you notice, I do not see much in the way of RP rhetoric yet... or am I mistaken...

that was due to our private chat last night.

Press Confence would be good... We can postpone our RP caht this evening....

Mss

[ManicStarSeed]

Originally posted by Arrian
MSS - I have to say that I prefer the line-item approach. It's more focused.

Your version isn't bad, don't get me wrong, but it's a little bit disorganized.

-Arrian

I really do too, can someone organize it such... see my post above...

I am scattered right now and if someoone can polish and edit it to be in-line by line, It would greatly help. I would rather have it that way...

I am pushing a few deadlines at work and can not organize it better right now....
I will check in in about an 30 minutes to finalize and see what we have...

Mss

[Arrian]

Ok, I'm on it.

Gimme a few minutes.

-Arrian

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet
* Trip: If you read this I would appreciate it if you would let me know if this impression of mine about you finding the undefended capitals is correct.

That's correct, though we also ran across an undefended ND Settler also.

[Arrian]

My draft, which is mostly Aeson's:

The Gathering Storm would like to respond to the allegations & accusations made by Beta in this thread.

- they get all of South Estonia, below Elipolis

We already control South Estonia for all intents and purposes. Vox's units in the area are fleeing back to the homeland.

Not a concession by Vox, but a reality already.

- we gift Dissidentville to them

Dissidentville is a shell of a town, pop rushed several times, and not in a position that GS would like to build in. We are now in control of the mountains to the south, and Dissidentville will fall regardless.

Not a concession by Vox, but an eventuality they hope to cash in on.

- we do a public mea culpa - we would readily admit to our aggression and duplicity in starting this war.

This was part of the deal. They say they are willing to admit their guilt, and apologize. Then without responding to our latest proposal, make a public diatribe targetting the honorability of GS.

Why would we believe they would keep their word this time? And furthermore, why does this really matter? If Vox apologizes publicly for starting the war, will any of the other teams actually care?

- we post a public non-agression pact with GS into the next era.

We had a border treaty with Vox which they discarded at their whim. There was a set method for renegotiating or withdrawing from the agreement, but it required several (10?) turns notice. Vox instead wanted suprise on their side and attacked, breaking the treaty outright.

Why should we feel they would hold to this treaty?

- we will provide engineering in approx 15 turns.

We are discussing trades with other teams at this point. Engineering in 15 turns is later than we can get it from other sources.

A real concession from Vox, but what guarantees does GS have that Vox would keep to their promise in this or any regard, given Vox's previous breaking of their treaties?

-we provide our free tech going into the next era.

Again, much like the previous argument. Although Nationalism is a very valuable tech, and GS wouldn't mind getting it for free. Would Vox keep to their word?

-we will not attack Inchon

No comment on this due to strategic and tactical reasons.

-we are allowed to safely evacuate all our troops from South Estonia

Vox's troops are running N. In our view it is because Inchon flanked the majority of their forces. They need their units N of Inchon to defend the bottleneck.

- this to include Harry and 4 other immortals trapped on the mountains in the SE. As a show of good will - they will move down to tha plains where they will be easy targets.

AFAIK, no statement of this type was ever made to GS. GS representatives made it quite clear to Vox that hostilities would continue until a peace deal was reached. Further, Vox's stack in the area was dead to rights, with catapults having gotten them down to 1 or 2 hps each (2 at 2 each, the rest at 1), and another round of firing reduced them all to redline. We were going to destroy that stack that turn anyway, regardless of the move off the mountain. Their supposed "good will" move also threatened several of our workers.

They have now landed troops in North Estonia.

Yes we have. As stated previously, hostilities will continue until such time as a formal peace treaty is finalized.

-and discuss the movement of Inchon - maybe two tiles south. They will still get the prime enhanced grassland tiles - but our cultural borders will not be overlapping.

This would represent a concession on GSs part.

-we also agreed to forfeit any access to iron, as a commitment to future non-aggression

We already control the Iron. Vox is giving us what we own? If it is an agreement not to trade for iron, well, again, trust is an issue.

Beta goes on to try to portray GS as "greedy" because we want them off the continent. I would simply remind the rest of the world that it was Vox that started this war, not GS. They dropped large stacks of immortals on us, seeking to conquer what they term as "South Estonia." We had to scramble to defend ourselves, and it was a very close-run thing, I assure you. Now that the tide has turned and we're winning, Vox wants us to have mercy on them?

I ask a simple question: why should we?

-Arrian, co-general of the armies of the Gathering Storm.

[Shiber]

Very good!

Some people, as individuals, are concerned with the elimination of a team. Perhaps we should note that we do not really care for Vox's elimination, just ceasing their continued existence on this continent.
Furthermore, IMHO it's worth mentioning that we now believe that victory by conquest over Vox is imminent, and we cannot be expected to give this all up for less than a quarter of what we could acquire via warfare.

[Shiber]

I suggest that I post the following below Arrian's message, if and once it is posted:

I know that to some individuals, the agreement that Beta has presented sounds generous and lucrative. But I assure you that as Arrian demonstrated above, it includes few actual concessions on Vox's side, and the really juicy parts are all based on trust, which no longer exists between Vox and GS.
What more, the revenues from Vox's proposal amount to about a quarter of the grand prize of a total victory over Vox by conquest, which now seems more imminent than ever. I honestly don't see how Vox could possibly expect us to give up everything that we've put into this war for 25% of the grand prize, especially not after they have conveyed their general consent to the exodus plan.

[ManicStarSeed]

Arrian, post it... Go for it. I like the line by line.

If no one objects, I would like to post what I have as well. Idealy before Arrians. I would add that there is more to follow.... It drives home some points that I want to make clear...

Put up or shut up.

If they want vox to exist, let it be so, but they must welcome vox on thier land mass(es) or we will eliminate them...

Mss

BTW Shiber... go

[Shiber]

MSS: thanks!
Nathan: your reply to Jon's latest message is brilliant!

[alva]

Wasn't part of south-Estonia ours to begin with anyway as part of the first border agreement?

[Aeson]

Anyone with the save that can give us a screenshot of Vox's stack threatening the workers? (with Hurricane not showing of course)

[Shiber]

I can, shot coming in a few minutes...

[ManicStarSeed]

Can i get a go ahead to post wht I have from the team... I will clean it up a little befor I post it...

Mss