MSS, you are up

[Shiber]

It was clear throughout the chat that RP wants Vox to remain on our continent because it would weaken us. Everyone in this game wants everyone else dead or weakened, it's the goal of the game, but to say this blatantly to another team is plain rude.
Also, they didn't threaten to intervene, they suggested it. Anyway, it's certain that we will not have anyone else on our continent but ourselves.

[Shiber]

So, what do you think of my idea to hold a press party on IRC and invite representatives from each team (but Vox, of course) to hear what we have to say about the war with Vox and Beta's announcement.

[FrustratedPoet]

Good idea, but Vox should be invited too. To ban them from the discussion would make us look very bad, I think. Especially considering we're talking about a post they made in the public forum. If we're going to basically call them a bunch of double-crossing liars they have the right to defend themselves.

We wouldn't like it if Vox held a chat session with all the other teams to give their POV on the war - and banned us from attending - would we?

[Shiber]

You're right.
If we're going to hold such a chat, we have to get a promise from Vox to allow us to speak for the first, say, 10-15 minutes.

[zeit]

I don't think Vox should be invited- their utter disrespect for honest and truthful diplomacy makes them unwanted guests in these sorts of interactions.
Why should we invite Vox for, so that they could carry on with their lies?

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by zeit
Why should we invite Vox for, so that they could carry on with their lies?

How would you feel if, instead of posting his message in the public forum, Beta had invited all the other ambassadors (not ours) to a chat room and given the same statement in private?

I bet you'd feel angry that they went behind our backs and didn't give us a chance to put our side of the story. We should extend them the same courtesy we would expect from others. We shouldn't let them drag us down to their level.

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by Shiber
If we're going to hold such a chat, we have to get a promise from Vox to allow us to speak for the first, say, 10-15 minutes.

Agreed.
They've had their turn to say something, now it's our turn. When we're done calling them on their BS it'll be their turn to defend themselves - if they can.

[Harovan]

Vox is dead. Deads do not talk. I would not invite Vox.

As for the "peacekeeper" role RP wishes to play... well, that would imply, that we trust Togas. Ha ha ha, that would be as foolish as trusting Vox.

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Vox is dead. Deads do not talk. I would not invite Vox.

The fact is that they're not dead yet, and they still very much have a voice that is capable of doing serious harm to our attempts to improve our diplomatic standing with other teams. We've already discussed that the best ways we can help ourselves in this game are by 1) claiming the whole of our continent by getting rid of Vox and 2) Avoiding a combined Bobian invasion and allowing good trade deals by getting other teams to like us a bit more.

I see #2 as just as important as #1 - by attempting to ostracize Vox from the community in this way we will only fuel the cause of people who have a vendetta against us. They say we are arrogant and isolationist - why should we go out of our way to prove them right?

We can control Vox's tide of misinformation much better if we confront their lies and expose them to the other teams. The only way to do that is in a chat session with all teams present.

[FrustratedPoet]

btw, I agree that there is no advantage to us in RP setting themselves up as "peace keepers". It's a crazy idea.

[Aeson]

The fact is that they're not dead yet, and they still very much have a voice that is capable of doing serious harm to our attempts to improve our diplomatic standing with other teams.

That is why they are "dead", because they are actively using their voice to do the harm now, instead of talking peace with us.

Vox says they are evacuating the continent. We offer a peace to help them prepare, but that hostilities will continue until a formal agreement is reached. Then they come out and make a post like this?

IMO... They will not give us their Industrial tech, they weren't planning on leaving, and they were just caught with their pants down and wanted time to get their "useless" and "dead" units back to their core to make the fight as tough as possible for us.

[vulture]

Other teams are asking for an official GS response to Beta now.

If we are going to make one, the following points are worth making:

The immortals were on 1 hp each anyway, so they were dead wherever they were. Vox could have disbanded them as a show of good faith. As it is, they moved next to several undefended workers, thus requiring us to trust Vox's good faith.

Their peace terms basically give up nothing that isn't already in the basket for us in any case, so they go unpunished. We don't want them to think they can get into a war where at the end of it they haven't really lost anything.

We previously told them that war would continue at full pace (what was the wording) unitl a peace treaty was signed.

Although they didn't attack Inchon, it would have been stupid for them to do so last turn. They neglected to mention that they moved several more immortals next to Inchon, and the troops previously next to it are still next to it.

Net result: Vox's signs of good faith cost them absolutely nothing tactically, but they are requiring us to wait at a time when two turns delay would drastically improve Vox's position.

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by Aeson
That is why they are "dead", because they are actively using their voice to do the harm now, instead of talking peace with us.

But in this game the harm you can inflict with diplomacy and misinformation is just as great as the harm you can inflict with a stack of Immortals. Saying "Vox is dead, we shouldn't talk to them" seems to me to be missing the point.

I agree that they cannot be trusted at all (and will say that they've been downright dishonest - almost cheats - in the way they've dealt with us), but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try and confront them in a public chat session. To try and cut them out of the communication loop seems to me to be ignoring them as a threat (not militarily, but diplomatically), which would be a grave mistake.

[Shiber]

Now he's asking for assistance from the rest of the world.
Oh... my... god...

This can't wait. He's causing tremendous damage ("I'm the poor underdog, look at my puppy eyes! GS is so cruel!"). A chat session and a confrontation with Beta would be wonderful, but IMHO we HAVE to send a PM to all the teams ASAP.

[OPD]

How about something like

Vox choose when to start this war, but this doesn't give them the right to dictate when the war should end or what terms are acceptable. That is up to GS, if things had gone differently and Vox were winning then they would be able to dictate peace terms although it is doubtful whether they would have been as friendly as those they expect us to accept.