MSS, you are up

[Harovan]

I agree with Arrian. Nathans statement is fine. But let's rewrite this sentence (2nd point):

"Vox's immortals were executed for the crimes of invasion in violation of treaty, complicity in the murder of Grog, and threatening the public safety, exactly on schedule."

FP made some good suggestions. I would add at the end of this point:

"A true sign of good faith would have been to disband these forces. They've been nearly dead anyway."

[vulture]

Well we could paraphrase the PM, but I thought it would carry more weight if it was a quote, and under the circumstances I think it would be allowable.

[OPD]

I think most of the team have given their opinions on this.
Deciding on a final post and posting it should be done should probably be done soon?

[vulture]

The final wording is up to MSS I suppose, since he is FAM. I think we're all pretty much agreed on what should go in though - the facts as we see them, particularly those that rebut Beta's attempts to slur us.

[Arrian]

Vox's immortals were executed for the crimes of invasion in violation of treaty, complicity in the murder of Grog, and threatening the public safety, exactly on schedule."

The way I'd say this, actually, is this:

"Vox's remaining troops in our territory were destroyed because we're still at war. We made it clear to Vox that until a peace treaty was finalized, the war would continue. They had been bombarded by catapults to the point where none of them had more than 2hp, and most had 1. So they were practically dead anyway. We would have killed them even if they had stayed on the mountain."

-Arrian

[Theseus]

Hmmm... all this talk of bombarding... so now we tell the world we've got a sh*tload of Cats, too?

[Arrian]

Theseus,

We're going to have to cough up some info in order to show the "world" that Beta is full of ****e. Plus, we've mentioned our cats in public before.

-Arrian

[FrustratedPoet]

EDIT for clarity (again - FP's edit wiped mine out)

Sorry.

[Aeson]

Wait for the screenshots to post IMO. Otherwise it's pretty good. I would do things item by item though.

- they get all of South Estonia, below Elipolis

We already control South Estonia for all intents and purposes. Vox's units in the area are fleeing back to the homeland.

Not a concession by Vox, but a reality already.

- we gift Dissidentville to them

Dissidentville is a shell of a town, pop rushed several times, and not in a position that GS would like to build in. We are now in control of the Spinebreakers to the south, and Dissidentville will fall regardless.

Not a concession by Vox, but an eventuality they hope to cash in on.

- we do a public mea culpa - we would readily admit to our aggression and duplicity in starting this war.

This was part of the deal. They say they are willing to admit their guilt, and apologize. Then without responding to our latest proposal, make a public diatribe targetting the honorability of GS.

Why would we believe they would keep their word this time?

- we post a public non-agression pact with GS into the next era.

We had a border treaty with Vox which they discarded at their whim. There was a set method for renegotiating or withdrawing from the agreement, but it required several (10?) turns notice. Vox instead wanted suprise on their side and attacked, breaking the treaty outright.

Why should we feel they would hold to this treaty?

- we will provide engineering in approx 15 turns.

We are discussing trades with other teams at this point. Engineering in 15 turns is later than we can get it from other sources.

A real concession from Vox, but it plays to the 'isolationist' tendancy attributed to GS in general. A stigma we hope to remove by increased trading and diplomacy with other teams. This concession by Vox would undermine that effort to a small extent, and so is not valuable to GS.

What guarantees does GS have that Vox would keep to their promise in this or any regard, given Vox's previous breaking of their treaties?

-we provide our free tech going into the next era.

Again, much like the previous argument. Although Nationalism is a very valuable tech, and GS wouldn't mind getting it for free. Would Vox keep to their word?

-we will not attack Inchon

No comment on this due to strategic and tactical reasons. A statement could be forthcoming in a few turns on the assessment of a Voxian attack on Inchon.

-we are allowed to safely evacuate all our troops from South Estonia

Vox's troops are running N. In our view it is because Inchon flanked the majority of their forces. They need their units N of Inchon to defend the bottleneck.

- this to include Harry and 4 other immortals trapped on the mountains in the SE. As a show of good will - they will move down to tha plains where they will be easy targets.

No statement of this type was ever made to GS. Vox's stack in the area was dead to rights, with catapults having gotten them down to 1 or 2 hps each (give exact numbers, screenshot). 7 GS catapults redlined the rest when they moved to t hreaten 3 of our Workers (screenshot), and they were finished off so that we could continue our public works projects in the area.

-and discuss the movement of Inchon - maybe two tiles south. They will still get the prime enhanced grassland tiles - but our cultural borders will not be overlapping.

Not a concession in the least. Inchon controls the area at this point.

-we also agreed to forfeit any access to iron, as a commitment to future non-aggression

We already control the Iron. Vox is giving us what we own?

[Shiber]

Originally posted by Arrian
I would finish it by posing a question: in our position, why in the world should we not evict Vox from the continent? Why are we expected to show mercy to our backstabbing neighbor?

And I would add to that: "and when victory over Vox by conquest and control over all of their cities and territory seems so imminent to us, why should we settle for ~25% of that?"

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by Aeson
We already control the Iron. Vox is giving us what we own?

I laughed out loud when I read that bit about the iron in Beta's post. I really wanted to post a repsonse saying "Wow, you're letting us keep our own Iron? How gracious of you! " - but I thought better of it.

Still ....

[Shiber]

Oh, and let's mention that:

1. We are deeply disappointed that Vox has chosen to blow up negotiations at their peak by exposing the details of up-until-now private communications.

2. Vox have admitted to us that they are already preparing to evacuate themselves from Estonia. In light of that, how is GS's proposal, to allow them a long term of cease fire while they focus on evacuating as much of their population as possible and to offer any aid that we can in effectively and efficiently carrying out their already-in-the-making plan for exodus, unfair?

[Aeson]

I wouldn't make the two points together... one or the other. It looks bad to say "shouldn't post private conversations" and then post the contents of private conversations (even though it's a different circumstance in both cases).

[Arrian]

Aeson, I was just thinking about a line-item rebuttal. Then I open this thread and see that you did one.

By the way, some of the comments by people from other teams really pissed me off. Is Beta's propoganda really that good? Do people really EXPECT us to allow Vox to survive because we should be "nice guys?" WTF?

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Shiber - #2 is the strong one. Let #1 go.

-Arrian