Dark Day for Demo Gaming

[Daddy-O]

@ Ljube & Grandpa Troll
Thank you for coming forward and condemning this DL cheat.

[notyoueither]

Please forgive my intrusion. I am not a participant in this game. However, the issue raised reaches far beyond this game. It effects all other DG activity among teams on Apolyton and, if not resolved in an appropriate way, could stain Apolyton in general among other sites. Thus I maintain that I as well as others have a voice in this controversy.

Here is a relevant passage from the rules for DGs that govern multisite events.

0.4.1 - Inadvertent or Accidental Espionage

Description/Procedures: All teams and their members are allowed to visit/view any other team's public access areas. An accidental viewing of a private or secure area due to a security hole or other bug/glitch in any software should not be considered a deliberate act of espionage provided the following conditions are met:

The members must have exited the private area immediately upon such discovery (it is up to each forum to clearly label its private areas.)

The member must privately inform his team leader of the inccident, the team leader must put the member in contact with one of the game staff and the member must give the game staff details about the incident (how it happened, how much was seen, etc.) The game staff will then inform the violated team of its security problem and which team violated their security and then determine what action if any should be taken against the member. Action to be taken should not exceed a 50-turn exclusion of the member from the game.

0.4.2 - Intentional Espionage

Description: Any out-of-game espionage in any form is strictly prohibited.

Definition: Trying to hack the secure team forum(s), continuously logging team chat channels, inserting moles in an opponent's team, hacking screenshots or savegame upload location, or any other action considered espionage as determined by the game staff

Verdict: doing any of the above as determined by the game staff is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Red (Ejection)

A team that commits a Red Offence will forfeit an enormous amount of turns, in upwards of 30 or 40 turns, they may even be ejected from the current game. A repeat offense is easily enough for they to be expelled from the entire IDG or ever playing on CDG again.

Far from asking that the turn be played, I feel it behooves BoH to seek to make redress in any way that they can. For myself, that would involve the offer of retirement from the game in question if a member of any team I was a part of were ever involved in an affair such as this.

OTOH, such drastic redress has not been asked for or suggested by BoH's opponents in this game. The wronged have been very kind. They have sought ways to affirm that they can trust BoH so that they may continue this game, and beyond, with BoH as participants. They have been met with denial, and now attacks on them not playing the turn.

If I may be blunt, based on recent posts in this thread, aside from Gramps, I am reconsidering whether BoH should be allowed to participate in any other games, or if they should be struck from the rolls of teams of Aployton who understand what honour in games such as this means.

Edit. X-posted

Originally posted by Paddy the Scot
I apologise that this has dragged on.

OPD and Beta will both have access in the coming 30 minutes.

Very good. I withdraw my concerns re BoH, but I leave them posted so that some might know that this is not simply a matter of discipline for a single member of any team.

[PLATO]

I want to thank everyone for the patience they have shown. Access is being granted to the Horde forums.

While individually, this has gotten to members of the Horde that we have all been branded part of a "cheating" team, we all recognize that we are a team.

We ask simply that there is some acknowledgement that the individuals on this team have not acted dishonourably. In asking this, we also know that the team BOH has hosted the cause of this problem.

With the request of Beta now answered, we have the sincere wish to move forward beyond this issue.

[Paddy]

It is four days since this matter was brought to my attention. I thank you all for your patience in allowing us to discuss this matter and meet with the requirements of team Babylon.

[Paddy]

OPD's access has been completed.

Beta has been PM'd with a link to this thread. He needs to join the civ group to allow access.

[E_T]

On the subjet of New Members of the Community and their acceptance into DG's (my POV):

First off, some History

I first started at Apolyton, shortly before Civ3 was released. I posted, rarely, while I was playing. I then had issues with the game, because of things that still needed to be patched. I quit playing, for a while, while waiting for some playability patches to be released.

During that time, I was also mostly away from Poly, but would still check things out, from time to time. During this time, I had come across the first SPDG. I started to read some, patched my game up to the most updated (IIRC 1.21f, at that time) and started to get involved.

I had then, gotten really involved, going from just general posts, to some coalation of ingame things (on my own time), because I felt that it was needed and it was widely received. After about a month, I had joined the FAM team, under Togas, then worked with GodKing on City Planning things (taking over for him when he had to be absent). I had then run for and won the City Planner election.

THen, under the new Con, ran and won 2 terms as Domestic Minister. Then one term as Minister of War (Winning a Successful war with Rome and starting a War successful with Germany, at the same time). Throughout the remainder of that game, had also helped with some policy, but had mostly gone off to the PTWDG1 with the Roleplay team.

I was with Roleplay, for a while. Then was active and later was the Minister of the Interior for the PTW ISDG game. I had then taken some time (because of personal issues and the Hurricanes) away from Poly and Civ.

Recently, I joined Team Babylon and here we are.

The thing is, after this bloated explanation, I'm finally getting to my point.

When I had started in the SPDG, I had something like 30 posts, in total, over several months. I didn't ( and still don't) Spam, so I had nothing in the way of post count, nor was my post content of the type that would get me recognized, above anyone else. But, before I had even realized it, I had my custom avatar (still the same to this day, btw) and my postcount was soaring.

BUT, if the SPDG had some form of requirement, like you would like to have, to join, It's very, very likely that I would have just gone somewhere else or just gone to other things and forgotten Civ entirely.

But here I am. Because people accepted me, no matter how much I had posted OR what I had posted, in the little but that I had done before joining.

And one reason that I DID join Team Babylon, was the chance to work with both new and old hands. People that I knew, but also people that I didn't. People that I would enjoy both teaching them things and learning from them.

In a word, growing.

And I'll say this now, I won't be a part of any team, now or in the future, that refused to allow anyone (and i'll say it very loudly, ANYONE), because, I don't want to lose the oppertunity that I might learn a thing or 3 from them and that they might learn something from me.

Which, IMVHO, is what this site is all about.


And with the advent of CIV, all of the DG's will have many new people. I'll not turn them away, but will you??


That's my take on it.

E_T

[ChrisiusMaximus]

Well as the thread title would sugest this now an even darker day for demo gaming !!

Beta congratulations, through your applied pressure you have broken the will of our team to keep you out of our forum.

I wont take away from the scale of issue here over the Dl but you were offered full cooperation to access threads via a third party, namely OPD who had said he would undertake this.

Yes this would be a longer process, however at least then our team integrity could remain intact should you higher beings consider us fit to continue on with in this or future games.

I have reluctantly backed down from my opposition to you having access, but not in any way because i think it is right. It has more to do with this sites appalling adminstrating of this mess.

No more lectures PLEASE about what has happened etc etc etc , we know full well what has happened and we know full well this will take some getting over BUT ON ALL SIDES !!

I hope that this will put an end to this, and also you will have the grace to admit and accept there was no need for you to ever doubt us by looking at our forum, i take this as deeply insulting.

I can fully understand how your team feels with regard to Planet but do you really believe dragging the whole of BOH through the mud this way has helped heal anything ?

[conmcb25]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Please forgive my intrusion. I am not a participant in this game. However, the issue raised reaches far beyond this game. It effects all other DG activity among teams on Apolyton and, if not resolved in an appropriate way, could stain Apolyton in general among other sites. Thus I maintain that I as well as others have a voice in this controversy.

Please all of you READ THIS and MEMORIZE this. This is the best post in the whole thread.

This has been Babylon's point all along. What we are doing right now is for the good of the site and for all of us.

And for the record, whether you chose to believe it or not, Beta doesn't want to find anything, he truely doesn't.

Lets get thru this step and then we can discuss where to go from here.

But this is clear evidence that more folks then just the ones playing this game are watching. And its also clear evidence that what has happened here is no small deal.

Give it some time, and lets see what happens.

[jagjef]

A lot of wise words has been said here, from both ET and NYE.
Please do not judge the whole Horde for what one member has done.

For me, I feel that this game has lost part of it's soul, part of it's fun.
It was a dark day for the demo game community, and the darkness has not gone away. And propably will not go away during C3CDG.

[Beta]

Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus
Well as the thread title would sugest this now an even darker day for demo gaming !!

Beta congratulations, through your applied pressure you have broken the will of our team to keep you out of our forum.

I wont take away from the scale of issue here over the Dl but you were offered full cooperation to access threads via a third party, namely OPD who had said he would undertake this.

Yes this would be a longer process, however at least then our team integrity could remain intact should you higher beings consider us fit to continue on with in this or future games.

I have reluctantly backed down from my opposition to you having access, but not in any way because i think it is right. It has more to do with this sites appalling adminstrating of this mess.

No more lectures PLEASE about what has happened etc etc etc , we know full well what has happened and we know full well this will take some getting over BUT ON ALL SIDES !!

I hope that this will put an end to this, and also you will have the grace to admit and accept there was no need for you to ever doubt us by looking at our forum, i take this as deeply insulting.

I can fully understand how your team feels with regard to Planet but do you really believe dragging the whole of BOH through the mud this way has helped heal anything ?

CM - you just don't get it. Your congratulating me, in the circumstances we find ourself, is so misplaced as to be idiotic. I do not feel like I have 'won' anything. Quite the opposite - I am very nervous about all this, and wishing, as we all do, that it had never occurred. Since you clearly do not understand the bigger issues here, or the intent of those trying to resolve the issues, please do us all a favour and sit quietly and listen. And maybe read nye's post again.

[Ming]

Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus
I have reluctantly backed down from my opposition to you having access, but not in any way because i think it is right. It has more to do with this sites appalling adminstrating of this mess.

Since you feel the need to state your opinion...

You have been one of the biggest problems in this matter... you had to be dragged kicking and screaming to do what is right.

Your handling of this situation is what has been appalling. Your TEAM got caught cheating, and your response was to ignore it.

The Facts have never been in issue... a member of your team created a DL and invaded another teams private forum... That action alone is a serious violation of the rules... Instead of facing that fact and doing what was neccessary to rebuild trust, you stonewalled behind the claim that no damage was done... Well guess what, the damage was already done by one of your team mates actions.

The health of the Apolyton gaming community is based on trust... something a member of your team violated.
There is no more serious crime here, and all you wish to do is sweep it under the table because he was a member of your team.

Your team is currently not trusted because of this... I would have thought you would have done everything needed to regain that trust... Your actions to date speak volumes of you.

I refuse to stand by while your actions could injure the entire gaming community at Apolyton. This goes far beyond the single game here.

As to your complaint... If you don't like the way things are handled around here, you are more than welcome to go elsewhere. We value trust and honesty in gaming... we don't tolerate cheating!

This is a privately owned site... when you become a member, you agree to follow the rules and follow instructions from the mods and owners. Well guess what... cheating is against the rules. And remember, your team mate was the one caught cheating.

That is a fact!

[Beta]

Originally posted by Paddy the Scot
OPD's access has been completed.

Beta has been PM'd with a link to this thread. He needs to join the civ group to allow access.

Thank you Paddy. I appreciate how difficult this is for you and your team. If it means anything, it is difficult for me, in other ways. This is not something I am approaching with positive anticipation; I do not mean that I have any preconceived ideas about what I will or will not find, just that it is not 'fun' to have to do this. I am even sort of cursing myself for the idea that night in chat. So, please trust that my intent is honourable here. Let's get this done, and move on.

I am posting before heading off to work, and will not be able to get started until at least this evening. I will likely join the civ group then.

Regards to all on BOH.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by E_T
On the subjet of New Members of the Community and their acceptance into DG's (my POV):

First off, some History

I first started at Apolyton, shortly before Civ3 was released. I posted, rarely, while I was playing. I then had issues with the game, because of things that still needed to be patched. I quit playing, for a while, while waiting for some playability patches to be released.

During that time, I was also mostly away from Poly, but would still check things out, from time to time. During this time, I had come across the first SPDG. I started to read some, patched my game up to the most updated (IIRC 1.21f, at that time) and started to get involved.

I had then, gotten really involved, going from just general posts, to some coalation of ingame things (on my own time), because I felt that it was needed and it was widely received. After about a month, I had joined the FAM team, under Togas, then worked with GodKing on City Planning things (taking over for him when he had to be absent). I had then run for and won the City Planner election.

THen, under the new Con, ran and won 2 terms as Domestic Minister. Then one term as Minister of War (Winning a Successful war with Rome and starting a War successful with Germany, at the same time). Throughout the remainder of that game, had also helped with some policy, but had mostly gone off to the PTWDG1 with the Roleplay team.

I was with Roleplay, for a while. Then was active and later was the Minister of the Interior for the PTW ISDG game. I had then taken some time (because of personal issues and the Hurricanes) away from Poly and Civ.

Recently, I joined Team Babylon and here we are.

The thing is, after this bloated explanation, I'm finally getting to my point.

When I had started in the SPDG, I had something like 30 posts, in total, over several months. I didn't ( and still don't) Spam, so I had nothing in the way of post count, nor was my post content of the type that would get me recognized, above anyone else. But, before I had even realized it, I had my custom avatar (still the same to this day, btw) and my postcount was soaring.

BUT, if the SPDG had some form of requirement, like you would like to have, to join, It's very, very likely that I would have just gone somewhere else or just gone to other things and forgotten Civ entirely.

But here I am. Because people accepted me, no matter how much I had posted OR what I had posted, in the little but that I had done before joining.

And one reason that I DID join Team Babylon, was the chance to work with both new and old hands. People that I knew, but also people that I didn't. People that I would enjoy both teaching them things and learning from them.

In a word, growing.

And I'll say this now, I won't be a part of any team, now or in the future, that refused to allow anyone (and i'll say it very loudly, ANYONE), because, I don't want to lose the oppertunity that I might learn a thing or 3 from them and that they might learn something from me.

Which, IMVHO, is what this site is all about.


And with the advent of CIV, all of the DG's will have many new people. I'll not turn them away, but will you??


That's my take on it.

E_T

I'm with E-T.

Except I think I had 0 posts prior to the SPDG. I joined specifically FOR it.

[bongo]

Originally posted by Ming
The Facts have never been in issue... a member of your team created a DL and invaded another teams private forum...

Umm, who is the DL here anyway? I thought "planet" registered *before* JTS? Doesn't that make JTS the DL??

[PLATO]

Now wouldn't that be hilarious. LOL. If James were actually feeding info from us to Babylon. Haha

Obviously, that is not the case. The Horde stands by its statement that we are one team and as a team wish to promote a healing process in this matter.