Dark Day for Demo Gaming

[Beta]

Ming has confirmed that Planet, a member of Babylon from early in the game, was a DL for another member of Apolyton, James the Scot, who is also a member of the BOH team in this game. Planet no longer exists, and Ming has dealt with James.

This is serious violation of Apolyton rules, to say nothing of the accepted code of conduct in mult-player demo games, hence Ming's actions. We all need to work towards making sure this does not happen again.

As a member of Apolyton, I am really, really disappointed and saddened by this. As the Leader of Babylon, I am more than a bit miffed. From my perspective, it does throw into question much of the game to-date. To that end, Paddy and I and members of our teams met this evening to discuss the matter and how we might move on from here. My team will be having a private discussion shortly.

The one thing I insist on, as does Ming, is that we do not turn this into a lynch mob. The violator has been dealt with. However, we do have the future health and well-being of MP demo games to consider at this point. To be honest, my trust has been shaken, and I suspect that will not be an uncommon reaction. How we restore that trust, and move past this, rests both with BOH and the rest of us.

I believe Paddy would like to post next - so please refrain posting until Paddy does. Thank you.

And to reiterate, please keep this calm and civil. Tensions have been high at times in this game, and this could be used as a flash-point, Don't. Ming is watching.

[Paddy]

Thank you Beta for your post.

This issue is at my feet, for I am responsible. Let that be heard clearly.

Some facts:
The login of Planet started in May 2005.
The login of Planet was used from my Home IP.
The login of Planet was created by three people, all of whom were not members of Apolyton at that time.
It was six weeks ago that James became a member in his own right, and was admited to the Horde.

The login of Planet joined the Civ III Demo Game. Their goal was to have some fun at my expense. They thought it all a big joke at the time. Hunting the game admin from within his own walls.
The login of Planet then went on to join the Team of Babylon in this the Civ III Conquests Team Demo Games Forum. Their goal, to be on a team that beat the Horde, again having fun at my expense.

There has been discussion that these lads made a massive conspiracy - they were playing the game for their own fun, as they sort fit.

That this situation developed is my fault in the end. That is the fact. I allowed access to the threads. I actually encourage some people to be members. This is my home. I accept that.

I have accepted the judgement of Mark and Ming, So do the other three. I now stand before the community of Apolyton for your Judgement.

[notyoueither]

What says Ming?

Was damage done?

Did James view the Babylon forums?

Did he discuss with the Horde anything to do with Babylon?

[Paddy]

Originally posted by notyoueither
What says Ming?

Was damage done?

Did James view the Babylon forums?

Did he discuss with the Horde anything to do with Babylon?

I will let Ming answer for himself.

Damage as far as trust - yes. In game - to be decided.

James did as part of Planet Login until 6 weeks ago.

Not with me, nor any other member of the Horde that I know of so far.

[notyoueither]

James posted in no threads that Babylon was being discussed in?

[Paddy]

Yes he did. He was a diplomat to their lands.

[notyoueither]

Damn.

[ormuzd]

really sad news...

I do not expect the full truth but did any of the two teams gain any advantage of this?

[ChrisiusMaximus]

Paddy this is all a great shock, Im not sure I know what to say.

I accept your explanations to me and your apology. I remain your friend and also a member of our team, whatever the wider community decides !

@ Beta I have gone through the log of the chat you have referred to in your opening post. I am reeling a little at some of the things stated in there, however I understand the sense in keeping this refrained. However I must say that if you or any others have issues with me then speak directly with me via PM.

This looks very bad for our team, its too early to tell if we can survive this issue, as well as it looks bad for this game.

I am not sure this thread was a great idea beta, and i consider any crisis that this creates will be on your head !

@ all think what you will of me personally but i have as much right to state my view here especially as it has been seen fit to be made so glaringly open. I believe i am correct in saying that our teams representatives were more than willing to assist you Beta in obtaining what information you required from us via admins, and your insistence to full access to our private forum for yourself unless we wanted to see you make a public address speaks volumes to me at least !!!

@ the admins of this site I know not of any wrong doing i have done and would ask of you is this your idea of a sensible way to deal with this issue ?

If asking this question puts me in breach of some site rule ive overlooked then deal with me as you see fit.

[Krill]

Bugger.

Stop the game, for a moment, at least. Don't play on any more, until this issue is sorted.

[Ming]

What says Ming?

I have looked at all the evidence and it supports the information that has been provided. However, as far as 100% proof, nobody but those involved will ever truly know.

As far as damage to the game, there is no real way from the admin end to answer that question.

I will say that action has been taken against the guilty.
And the site does not condone a witch hunt, and would like to avoid any flame wars. Please discuss the issues involved in a civil fashion. While we understand how serious this issue is, we still expect people to behave and follow the rules of this site. Two wrongs do not make a right... so please keep things civilized.

@ the admins of this site I know not of any wrong doing i have done and would ask of you is this your idea of a sensible way to deal with this issue ?

While I'm not sure exactly what is meant by this... I will say the policy of this site is to encourage people to work out their own differences. Cheating in any of the games will not be tolerated by the management. The general rule is, if you are going to accuse somebody of cheating, you must be able to prove it... and if you can prove it, it's then ok to discuss it, deal with it, but in a civil fashion.

The people I have been dealing with on this issue have played by the site rules... All private discussions have been done in an up front and honest fashion. I've listened to both sides, provided information as required and have done what I think is in the best interest of this site. As I said, the site does not condone cheating, and we think we have taken the proper actions on our end.

It is now up to you guys to figure out what it means to the game you are playing. And again, I know this is a very HEATED issue, but we do still expect people to stay civil.

If you have any other questions, I will answer them to the best of my ability when possible.

[Beta]

Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus
Paddy this is all a great shock, Im not sure I know what to say.

I accept your explanations to me and your apology. I remain your friend and also a member of our team, whatever the wider community decides !

@ Beta I have gone through the log of the chat you have referred to in your opening post. I am reeling a little at some of the things stated in there, however I understand the sense in keeping this refrained. However I must say that if you or any others have issues with me then speak directly with me via PM.

To start with, given the purpose of last night's chat, I am a bit disappointed it has been shared to a larger audience. We did not at our end.

Secondly, CM, please be specific. Send me a PM and I will respond.

I am not sure this thread was a great idea beta, and i consider any crisis that this creates will be on your head !

Was discussed with Ming and Paddy. Would you rather word quietly get out that a member of BOH had a DL on babylon - and it would eventually. That would be much worse for both BOH and Apolyton. C'mon use some common sense.

As to this being on my head - um - I did not create the DL.

@ all think what you will of me personally but i have as much right to state my view here especially as it has been seen fit to be made so glaringly open. I believe i am correct in saying that our teams representatives were more than willing to assist you Beta in obtaining what information you required from us via admins, and your insistence to full access to our private forum for yourself unless we wanted to see you make a public address speaks volumes to me at least !!!

Get your facts straight. The public annoucment was happening regardless. And as to ways of rebuilding the trust, [edit] there is dicussion further down in this thread.

@ the admins of this site I know not of any wrong doing i have done and would ask of you is this your idea of a sensible way to deal with this issue ?

If asking this question puts me in breach of some site rule ive overlooked then deal with me as you see fit.

No one said you had dome anything wrond CM. And as to your second point, answered above.

[PLATO]

It is a sad day for the Horde indeed. It is obvious that James exercised some very poor judgement.

My position as Chief Ambassador for the Horde has put me in a position to know in depth all of our diplomatic strategy. To the best of my knowledge, James never communicated any information he may have gleaned from the Babylonian threads.

Still, the issue of trust remains...and rightly so. I was very pleased that Beta indicated at the end of our chat last night that he trusted Paddy's word based upon their relationship. I also have a firm belief that Paddy was not involved in this situation any further than having the openess of his home taken advantage of.

Babylon has requested full access to our forums for a limited time. The Horde has responded with an offer to provide Babylon with copies of all threads they were discussed in and to have the copies verified as accurate by this site's administration. We believe that this is the most resonable way to assure Babylon of the things that were being discussed about their nation, while still trying to maintain whatever integrity this game may have left. This offer remains open even now.

As to my friend Paddy, I must say in all the time I have known him that I have never seen him so distraught over a situation. Please remember that this was his family and friends that have brought this down on him, the team he leads, and the site he loves. I, for one, stand by him in all respects.

[Beta]

Ming - we cross posted. Thank you for clarifying matters.

[Beta]

Plato - thank you again to you and Paddy for our very - er frank - conversation of last night.

To clarify what I was looking for:

One member, myself, would have a limited time access to BOH. I have promised that I would avoid any discussions related to the upcoming civ4 game, and any theme or trash talking threads (as in "Isn't that Beta an A$$, volumes 1, thru 4.).

My intent would be to research several in game incidences that help triggered our suspicions in the first place, sticking strictly to correspondence, turn, or strategy discussion threads. I am looking to satisfy myself that indeed, no relevant information that the DL had access to was passed back through to BOH. IMHO, this would clearly allow us to re-establish 100% trust and move past this. I am not, in any way, looking to obtain an in-game advantage. I am looking at history, and we have committed to 25 turns of peace anyways, so I trust there are no immediate war plans.

And yes this would require that you trust me - trust me not to wander around the forum willy-nilly - trust me to move past stuff which is not relevant - and trust my intent here. But given the situation we find ourselves in, I do not think this is asking too much, particularly when juxtaposed against the trust you are now asking of the community.

As I stated a number of times in the chat last night - my concern here is for both Apolyton and BOH - yes BOH and all its members. Other than some team healing and reflection which has to occur, Babylon is not a concern. This is not a matter of making amends, or "balancing the books" in some way. My proposal is made for the good of the community.

As to an admin doing it - first - I don't thing Ming would be up for the time requirement. And as he has stated, he is letting us manage how we move past this. As to another third party - such as OPD or another admin. Again - you would gve to trust him not to access any civ4 information as well. And it would take him much longer to track down what might or might not be relevant, and he would have to study two sets of threads - including Babylonian - which will really expand the time requirement. And it would probably take me much longer to explain to OPD, look at what he finds, suggest something else, etc, than if I went in and looked myself.

As to the proposal about sending us all the Babylon strategy threads, my point is that I would have to see correspondence and posts related to other civs, the recent BOH war declaration on DR being an example.

So, hopefully that helps explain what the plan was - and why I proposed it. I have been thinking of alternative solutions since the chat, and if I come up with another, and hopefully better idea, i will let you know.