Dark Day for Demo Gaming

[Ming]

Could you say what would be sufficient to put this to rest?

I can't answer that question since I'm not the wronged party here.

I can say that many are disappointed that the turn was passed before any resolution of this matter...

I can say that many are disappointed by some of the posts implying that the victim is resposible for allowing a DL in...

I can say that many are disappointed that people are now trying to force the other teams into a decision before anything has truly been worked out...

I can say that many are disappointed on some of the flaming that is occuring...

I can say that many people are disappointed on many of the response posted by team BOH...

And I can say that many people are disappointed on how team BOH is handling this in general...

But I can not say what everybody involved would like to see, because I don't speak for them. They are the wronged party... not I.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Ming


I can't answer that question since I'm not the wronged party here.

Fair enough

I can say that many are disappointed that the turn was passed before any resolution of this matter...

This should not have happened

I can say that many are disappointed by some of the posts implying that the victim is resposible for allowing a DL in...

I agree that enough mudslinging has gone on and a decision should be brought forth exactly what will resolve this

I can say that many are disappointed that people are now trying to force the other teams into a decision before anything has truly been worked out...

If I were the one "being forced" I would simply suggest they tell the "Pusher" to be calm and wait for a resolution, plain and simple.

I can say that many are disappointed on some of the flaming that is occuring...

I have seen some by various parties and that is one thing I have allways felt crossed the line, flaming,personal insult which is not roleplay but immature

I can say that many people are disappointed on many of the response posted by team BOH...

Well..since I am a member of Team BOH I say we should cooperate and not cloud anything over..provide any/all necessary documentation to ensure continuity of fair and cheat free play did in fact exist. I say this for the good of Apolyton not any darn make believe game play

And I can say that many people are disappointed on how team BOH is handling this in general...

I refer to the above comment that we are a group of men under the nicname BOH but at least men should understand the greater good that is needed, resolution not hiding behind a darned fricking game..comeout and lets put any cards needed on the table..not pause and say no..

But I can not say what everybody involved would like to see, because I don't speak for them. They are the wronged party... not I.

OkMing

maybe we can start by having members of teams 9without immature flames or she said/he did/ sort of rigamarol

Just pointed "I would say in this turn year XXXX BOH took what seemed unacceptable and made it happen"

Ok
I say we as BOH should come clean and say well.hers what happened and how we came to this decision.

I love Aployton

I love playing pbem and love most of you guys here

I have seen despicable things take place and really feelthe time is at hand to right the wrongs

I am but a man standing in the gap

I say this not because I feel I am a lone member of BOH

But because I expect my fellow members of BOH and members of all other groups, as well as anymosity and flaming and come clean, to put aside any "role play" and be honest and forthright

This means more to me than anything at Apolyton, more than BOH gaming and more than sitting watching relationships crumble over a game!

Bruce K. Cronkite A K A Grandpa Troll

[Ljube]

Ming, will two wrongs make things right?

James the Scot broke the rules by creating a DL (the rules of this site). He also broke the spirit of demo gaming by inserting this DL into another team. So what do we do now? We punish all other members of BOH team? Tell me Ming, how is that right?

Also, your repeated accusation that our team was caught cheating is inappropriate because you have no evidence for that. You caught one of our members creating a DL on another team. If you want to prove that we cheated, then you have to show what inside information we gained through this device. I claim I received no information and I was involved in almost all decision making in the team. I know that none of the major decisions in the game were in any way influenced by any information received from the DL, or by James the Scot himself.

About placing the blame on those that were cheated, there is no way to prevent people from creating DLs for this or that purpose. There is also no way to confirm the real identity of the users and their logins. So, if we all want to have an enjoyable game, we have to take certain necessary measures to protect the secrecy of closed forums. And these measures are to never let a novice member to those forums, particularly when someone (I in this case) has already questioned the integrity of said novice member.


It was agreed that a 24 hour turn would be observed in this game. Babylon are holding the save for much longer now. If everybody expects that BOH will retire, well guess what, we are fighters and we will never surrender. Give us your best shot.

[Krill]

That is it. I am outta here. Please remove me from the save recipient list, LN.


Ljube. Shut up and have some decency. let the team that has been cheated, by members of your team, to decide if they want to stay in the game or not. I don't for the simple reason that members of a team have cheated. What will you do if LN, and Babylon decide to quit? Declare victory?

[Ljube]

No, we will play on. As you should.

[Beta]

Originally posted by Grandpa Troll

If I were the one "being forced" I would simply suggest they tell the "Pusher" to be calm and wait for a resolution, plain and simple.

Um - I sort of thought was what had been agreed to. So, I will say it - be calm and wait for a resolution, plain and simple.

Originally posted by Ljube

Ming, will two wrongs make things right?

Where was Ming suggesting in any way, shape, or form, a second wrong.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Ljube
Ming, will two wrongs make things right?

Uhhh... what is the second wrong?

James the Scot broke the rules by creating a DL (the rules of this site). He also broke the spirit of demo gaming by inserting this DL into another team. So what do we do now? We punish all other members of BOH team? Tell me Ming, how is that right?

Are you suggesting that the game should just go on as if this didn't happen?

Also, your repeated accusation that our team was caught cheating is inappropriate because you have no evidence for that. You caught one of our members creating a DL on another team.

We have evidence that one of your team members created and used a DL on another team, is that not cheating?

If you want to prove that we cheated, then you have to show what inside information we gained through this device. I claim I received no information and I was involved in almost all decision making in the team. I know that none of the major decisions in the game were in any way influenced by any information received from the DL, or by James the Scot himself.

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA... can you prove that?
No, you can't. The fact is, a DL was caught. I have stated repeatedly that nobody will ever know what effect it had the game... but I hope you are smart enough to realize what a violation of trust this is, and how serious it is. Your team was caught! and that's a fact...

About placing the blame on those that were cheated, there is no way to prevent people from creating DLs for this or that purpose. There is also no way to confirm the real identity of the users and their logins. So, if we all want to have an enjoyable game, we have to take certain necessary measures to protect the secrecy of closed forums. And these measures are to never let a novice member to those forums, particularly when someone (I in this case) has already questioned the integrity of said novice member.

Again... you are trying to shift the blame to the injured party... one of YOUR TEAM MEMBERS WAS CAUGHT. DOES THIS MEAN ANYTHING TO YOU?

It was agreed that a 24 hour turn would be observed in this game.

Hmmm... did every team agree that the 24 hour would be maintained in light of one of your team members being caught cheating?

If everybody expects that BOH will retire, well guess what, we are fighters and we will never surrender. Give us your best shot.

And that is the attitude most people have a right to be pissed about it. You guys just don't get it. Your team has been caught cheating (having a DL on another team is cheating. PERIOD) You should never have passed on the save until this issue had been resolved... You should be willing to do whatever is asked to rebuild the level of trust... and yet, you post flames, blame the injured parties for the actions of one of your team members, and hide your head in the sand ignoring how serious this issue is.

Instead of saying you won't surrender, how about seriously talking to the other teams and try to come to some agreement... Remember, it is YOUR team that created the problem.

[Beta]

Originally posted by Ljube

Also, your repeated accusation that our team was caught cheating is inappropriate because you have no evidence for that. You caught one of our members creating a DL on another team. If you want to prove that we cheated, then you have to show what inside information we gained through this device. I claim I received no information and I was involved in almost all decision making in the team. I know that none of the major decisions in the game were in any way influenced by any information received from the DL, or by James the Scot himself.

To start with, ming never said that BOH cheated. He has clearly stated throughout that a member of BOH was caught cheating, according to the rules of Apolyton.

Your second point is key though - to what extent did information that may have been available get used in the game? And ypu have to understand that goes beyond what one individual may or may not have known.

I think the major point Ming is making is that your team's position to-date is so far out of synch with the situation that it is making people wonder even more. That's as succintly as I can put it.

[Ljube]

Not my team, a member of my team. When you say my team, you also include me. Saying that my team created a problem has the same effect as saying that I created a problem.

Yes, I created a DL once, but for different reasons and promptly reported the DL to you for deletion. That is the extent of my guilt in this matter. I and the other 15 members of my team will not stand to be accused without reason. The blame is individual, not collective. This is not communism, or so I hope.

Also, I don't post flames and I don't blame anyone but James the Scot for this whole mess. But I also won't accept the blame. And since I don't feel that I've done anything wrong, I don't see why I would need to make amends to those parties that feel injured. That is the second wrong: You and others allowing Babylon what slack they want and chastising us as if we're disciples of Satan.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Ming




but I hope you are smart enough to realize what a violation of trust this is, and how serious it is. Your team was caught! and that's a fact...

qft

I as a member of BOH feel we should come forth as all teams should do..not not telling people to shut up but for real we should answer the litany of charges

we have indeed fact we as a team have a major not minor violation with a DL..the perp has been caught and punished however even Paddy has told me has taken responsibility. Ok moving on we should as a team not waste one iota of time dragging heals but rather expeideintly (umm in a hurry if that wasnt a word) answer any questions, specific questions answered with specific answers..

Again... you are trying to shift the blame to the injured party... one of YOUR TEAM MEMBERS WAS CAUGHT. DOES THIS MEAN ANYTHING TO YOU?

shames me as human to know this took place and further we are not rectifying this with full fledged answers

Hmmm... did every team agree that the 24 hour would be maintained in light of one of your team members being caught cheating?

I cant believe as a member of BOH who had all this honor talk that we wouldnt be the first to say HALT! WAIT! Lets resolve this so no further damage is done...

And that is the attitude most people have a right to be pissed about it. You guys just don't get it. Your team has been caught cheating (having a DL on another team is cheating. PERIOD) You should never have passed on the save until this issue had been resolved... You should be willing to do whatever is asked to rebuild the level of trust... and yet, you post flames, blame the injured parties for the actions of one of your team members, and hide your head in the sand ignoring how serious this issue is.

Instead of saying you won't surrender, how about seriously talking to the other teams and try to come to some agreement... Remember, it is YOUR team that created the problem.

Lets go folks lets answer questions so our honor as men men..supercedes this darned game

Bruce K. Cronkite "Grandpa Troll"

[Krill]

to the Honourable Grandpa

[Ljube]

Originally posted by Beta

Um - I sort of thought was what had been agreed to. So, I will say it - be calm and wait for a resolution, plain and simple.

Wait for what? Are you planning to play the save? Are you still debating what to do? How long do we have to wait for you to decide?

I thought this thing was resolved by exposing James the Scot and punishing him as he deserved.

Originally posted by Beta

Where was Ming suggesting in any way shape, shape, or form, a second wrong.

Treating us differently than other teams, expecting that we make amends. That is the second wrong.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Ljube
Not my team, a member of my team. When you say my team, you also include me. Saying that my team created a problem has the same effect as saying that I created a problem.

No... it is saying just what it says... your team has created a problem.

I and the other 15 members of my team will not stand to be accused without reason. The blame is individual, not collective. This is not communism, or so I hope.

Then maybe your team should do whatever they can to recreate the lost trust here... instead of what you have been doing.

Also, I don't post flames and I don't blame anyone but James the Scot for this whole mess.

Gee... weren't you blaming the other team for allowing this to happen... what about blaming your team for not policing it's own members?

But I also won't accept the blame. And since I don't feel that I've done anything wrong, I don't see why I would need to make amends to those parties that feel injured. That is the second wrong

No one is acking you too... they are asking your team to. Whether you like it or not, James is a member of your team.

You and others allowing Babylon what slack they want and chastising us as if we're disciples of Satan.

Actually... it seems like most of the flaming is coming from your team????

Again... all people are asking is honest and open talk... and they haven't gotten it yet... all they have gotten is, we passed the turn, retire or play...

[Ming]

Originally posted by Ljube
Treating us differently than other teams, expecting that we make amends. That is the second wrong.

Uhhh... last time I checked, your's is the only team that has been proven to have a cheater on it. That does kind of make you special in this matter. And yes, your team should take responsibilities for it's members... and you should make amends.

Whether you like it or not... IT HAPPENED. Now deal with it and just don't bury your head in the sand.

[Ljube]

OK Ming, tell us what you expect from us. In spite of feeling no guilt in this matter, for the greater good of my team and the whole community I'm prepared to do what you deem necessary to restore trust. What say you?