Stop the America-bashing!

[Dauphin]

They--40 million strong--would have fought to the death otherwise, and this even after the devastations wrought upon Nagasaki and Hiroshima

The Japanese population is about 125 million IIRC. So 60 years ago the population would still have been well in excess of 40 million. I would guess 80 million.

Are you refering to the male population being 40 million by any chance?

[Giovanni August]

"Napolitano Bonaparte"???? !
Who's that guy? I know Napoleone !!!
Anyway!
The story of Napoleone is much more related to Italy then the one of Leatitia!
As you already said Napoleno was born in the island of Corsica in the city of Ajaccio!
That island was sold by the Republic of Genova to France in the years 1769 and Napoleone was born in August of the same year!
So as you can see he was very near to be an Italian and not a French (but i don't think that with the Genovese Army he would conquer nearly all Europe like he did with the French Army)(Probably he would be conquer only few othe Italian cities!)
BTW
Napoleone was feeling very much his Italian origin and that is why when he conquered the boot he decided to give a big autonomy to us and the part of his Army that was recruited in Italy was using as a flag instead of the French flag a green-white-red flag that later became our flag!

PS
Sorry if I was boring
PPS
Do you know the Italian showgirl Elenoire Casalegno? well! If you see Elenoire looks really like a French name (the last name instead is really Italian)
PPPS
When I stopped at NY I ate a pizza in Sbarro inside the WTC! It wasn't very good but still much better than Seattle's Pizza!

[siredgar]

The U.S. does not "rule" Japan. A decision to amend the constitution to change the nature of Japanese military forces is up to Japanese legislators, not the U.S. government. However, I believe that these forces are under joint U.S.-Japanese command requiring approval by both sides for any sigificant military moves, just like for South Korea. Correct me, if I'm wrong.

Nevertheless, the U.S. does have strong influence on the military policies of countries like Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and even Britain. Generally, these are made through military arrangements such as joint command agreements or treaties like ANZUS.

[satyajedi]

"We had to look aside as the imperial family fell blameless because the Japanese people held the emperor as somewhat of a deity and incapable of wrongdoing"

The United States has done many terrible things in our time, but the pardoning of anyone in the Japanese military with royal connections is one of the worst things we did in the 20th century. Idle complaining, and perhaps only tangentally related, but when you hear about Nanking and realize that the architects get let off when we could have prosecuted them, it pisses me off. It's ramifications can still be seen in a Japanese society that refuses to acknowledge any of the atrocities committed by the Japanese in World War II, with history books that merely repeat the Japanese war propaganda that Japan was liberating Korea, China and Southeast asia from European colonization.

By the way, I suspect that Koizumi will not be able to amend/remove the pacifist clause in the Japanese constitution. Many Japanese people support this clause, both inside and outside the government, and it appeals to a post-WWII sense that the Japanese have "outgrown" militarism (as opposed to barbaric American gajin).

Still, there should be little doubt that even without a military, Japan is amoung the most powerful nations in the world. In these days of interconnected economies, the importance of military power is so severely diminished that I don't think Japan loses anything, power-wise, by not having an army.

-Satya

[satyajedi]

By the way, to all you anti-American Europeans, I have to say...

Man, what a relief to hear you guys diss America! To be an American right now is to be constantly bombarded with America uber alles images from every media outlet. I'd almost forgotten there were people in the world -- that is, other than psychotic Islamic terrorists -- who were willing to kick our arrogant, self-centered, militaristic, Kyoto-defying, ABM-treaty-trashing ass.

I gotta renew my subscription to the Guardian...

-Satya

[Giovanni August]

Originally posted by satyajedi
By the way, to all you anti-American Europeans, I have to say...

Man, what a relief to hear you guys diss America! To be an American right now is to be constantly bombarded with America uber alles images from every media outlet. I'd almost forgotten there were people in the world -- that is, other than psychotic Islamic terrorists -- who were willing to kick our arrogant, self-centered, militaristic, Kyoto-defying, ABM-treaty-trashing ass.

I gotta renew my subscription to the Guardian...

-Satya

With all the respect.
But I didn't really understand what you mean by this!
Can you explain please?

[siredgar]

I realize the fallout that will come from this, however...

I have to ask the following question:

"Isn't it a bit self-righteous and hypocritical for Europeans to admonish U.S. foreign policy for destructive behavior, especially when it is the Europeans who have started so many wars, colonized and enslaved so many peoples, and destroyed much of Earth's ecosystem?"

After a series of endless regional warfare, the Europeans had developed advanced weaponry and ocean-faring vessels. They took this knowledge to begin colonizing and enslaving the peoples of Africa, Asia, and the Americas. The ramifications of this are still felt throughout the world today, including in the U.S.

Some may argue that this is inevitable. Human nature they say. Man shall always seek power.

Well, compare this to the Chinese. They developed gunpowder and ocean-faring junks hundreds of years before the Europeans took full advantage of these technologies. Expeditions by Cheng Ho led to voyages to Southeast Asia, India, the Middle East, and even the coasts of East Africa.

So, did they go ahead and then take over the inhabitants? No, they traded with them. Even with the ones that were considered relatively "primitive" to their civilization.

The European superiority complex led to many tragedies in human civilization, not to mention two World Wars. Many European states are only now moving towards better cooperation, more aid for developing countries, and environmental protection. This is after hundreds of years of devastating wars, the colonization/enslavement of other peoples, and environmental degradation.

Look at your own history before criticizing others.

The U.S. is still a "young" country. Give it a break!

[Giovanni August]

So what you are basicly saying is:

"Because Europeans have an horrible History and are bad and arrogants people, Americans have right to do the same things"

Really great philosophy: Congratulations!
Fortunately very few Americans think like you, and very few Europeans are like you described!!!

[Harovan]

Re: I realize the fallout that will come from this, however...

Please don't count this an anti-american issue (it's not meant to be one), but:

Originally posted by siredgar
After a series of endless regional warfare, the Europeans had developed advanced weaponry and ocean-faring vessels. They took this knowledge to begin colonizing and enslaving the peoples of Africa, Asia, and the Americas. The ramifications of this are still felt throughout the world today, including in the U.S.

Sitting on the soil the European conquerors gained bloodily from the native American population and saying "That was evil!" sounds funny. If it would not have happened, most of you (assumed they were really born) would still be - Europeans.

Originally posted by siredgar
Well, compare this to the Chinese. They developed gunpowder and ocean-faring junks hundreds of years before the Europeans took full advantage of these technologies. Expeditions by Cheng Ho led to voyages to Southeast Asia, India, the Middle East, and even the coasts of East Africa.

Right, the Chinese did not attack. They were safe and happy behind their Great Wall. But the Mongols did. And the Turks too. And a big part of Europe was occupied for centuries. Half of the population of former Yugoslavia are still Moslems. So don't tell stories of the peaceful Asians and the evil Europeans. All civilizations (including European, Asian, African and yes - American) have light and dark spots in their history.

Originally posted by siredgar
The U.S. is still a "young" country. Give it a break!

Agreed, though with a smile . Read the thread "Are the Americans old enough..." and see how "old" the American civ is in the opinion of so many .

[jasev]

Re: I realize the fallout that will come from this, however...

Originally posted by siredgar
I have to ask the following question:

"Isn't it a bit self-righteous and hypocritical for Europeans to admonish U.S. foreign policy for destructive behavior, especially when it is the Europeans who have started so many wars, colonized and enslaved so many peoples, and destroyed much of Earth's ecosystem?"

Nice question. So you say:
1) The Europeans commited atrocities.
2) So, the Americans are allowed to commit atrocities.
3) The Americans can criticize the Europeans for their past atrocities.
4) But the Europeans can't criticize the Americans for their current Atrocities.

Who is hypocritical here? We know our history, and we can regret it. But we weren't born when it happened and we can't avoid it. Meanwhile, Americans are responsible of the current activities of their government because they ellected it. They can avoid it.

[siredgar]

I am not saying that Americans should not be held responsible for their actions, but it is interesting to me to see such vehement criticism of U.S. foreign policy from those that helped create many of problems that Americans are now dealing with.

For example, many of the root causes of turbulence in the Middle East originates with British policy there. Now, it is chiefly the U.S. that must handle the consequences of this turbulence.

By the way, I brought up the example of the Chinese during the 15th century, not to say that Asians are "peaceful" and Europeans are "evil", but to demonstrate that not all civilizations need to resort to violence in interactions with other peoples just because they are more advanced. I hope that the U.S. follows this example.

Anyhow, I don't think there is much that the U.S. does now that even compares with past European actions.

[muppet]

Re: Re: I realize the fallout that will come from this, however...

Originally posted by jasev


Nice question. So you say:
1) The Europeans commited atrocities.
2) So, the Americans are allowed to commit atrocities.
3) The Americans can criticize the Europeans for their past atrocities.
4) But the Europeans can't criticize the Americans for their current Atrocities.

Who is hypocritical here? We know our history, and we can regret it. But we weren't born when it happened and we can't avoid it. Meanwhile, Americans are responsible of the current activities of their government because they ellected it. They can avoid it.

Isn't that kind of like... twisting what was actually said?

As to current activities...

I realize that, in North America, our news reports are uhm... tainted -- I try not to call reporters, liars (it's a job). However, I am curious as to what current activities America engages in that are so bad?

[Dry]

Sons will not be ounished for the sins of their father

Originally posted by siredgar
I have to ask the following question:

"Isn't it a bit self-righteous and hypocritical for Europeans to admonish U.S. foreign policy for destructive behavior, especially when it is the Europeans who have started so many wars, colonized and enslaved so many peoples, and destroyed much of Earth's ecosystem?"

I had people of my family killed by the nazis, but I will never held German people of today responsible for it.
It is their grand-parents who put Hitler to power, not them.
But, OTOH, if they say:"What our grand-parents did was no mistake, what they did was right", then, I think that they share responsability.

The same way, I will never accuse an American of today for the massacre of the American Natives of yesterday, except if he states that it was 'the right thing to do' (we all know the excuse of "they didn't do anything usefull of their land, so we took it". With this mentality, I guess there is no backyard in the US with simply grass. "Cultivate your garden, or I have the right to take it" !?! ).

So yes, even as European, I will 'admonish' American (or whoever) for what they do, not for what their ancestors did.

We learned the hard way that humilating an ennemy was to feed the extremist part of it.
Our grand parents humiliated the Germans with the treaty of Versailles, and the consequences were Hitler and nazism.
Our parents, learned from the bad experience of out grand-parents and although Hitler was real evil (much more than Saddam Hussein), they tried not to humiliate Germany.
Yes, (as an example) today we say: what US make Iraqi (or Israel in Gaza), is the same mistake as our grand-parents. They humiliates Iraqi. We all know the consequences of humiliation: extremism. It will not be nazism, but it will be integrism (each one its extremism).
Notice that I am *not* saying that Saddam (or the hesbola(?)) are nice guys, no, what I say is that your policy *helps* those evil people.

What bugs us, as european, is that the same way nazism did not only affect Europe, the extremism you are feeding today, will not only affects you, but the whole world.
The same way I say: our grand parents made a mistake, the same way I say: you are making a mistake.

What I say here is: we (europeans) made mistakes, but we learned. You, you seem to forget: your grand-parents were wise enough not to humiliate Germany or Japan, and you lost this wisdom in middle-east.

BTW1: I know some US-haters who say: "No, the US (same for Israel) are not THAT stupid, they perfectly know what they are doing. They are doing this purposely, nobody can be *that* innocent. They *want* extremism. They do NOT want any rich country (arabic, muslim) in this region, so they feed extremism by all possible means. Humiliation is the best, because on one hand you feed the problem and as soon as humiliated people react, you may say: see, I was right, they *are* evil".

BTW2: there are other points (nationalism, morality/hypocrisy, religion,...) on which you really makes me think to our grand-parents (1900-1950). Technologically you are ahead of us, but by values/morality, you are at the level of our grand parents and it bugs me when your so-called values comes back to Europe, I have the feeling that history is going backward.
Our grand parents values brought the world to great misfortune, what will *you*, with same values, but better technology bring to the world?
Please, learn from the past, even the past of other countries.

[jasev]

Re: Re: Re: I realize the fallout that will come from this, however...

Originally posted by muppet
However, I am curious as to what current activities America engages in that are so bad?

Sorry if I didn't express myself correctly, but I was just speaking hypothetically.

[Harovan]

I don't wish to start a bean counting, that would be wrong. As a German I know, that it's a short way from "Hooray"-patriotism through nationalism to fascism, I (as well as most other Germans today) know what my ancestors have done and don't expect anybody to love me. Just take me as I am.

What I don't like in America's current policy is, that they try to play "Civilization" with the real World. How do most of us play? The World is our playground, all resources belong to us no matter where they are located, we have no friends but only vassals, we use our financial superiority to finally ruin the poor, our military is omnipresent, global warming doesn't matter for the sake of our production, and if we bomb cities back to stone age it's their own fault, because they started to attack our tank army with a knight.

Unfortunately, the present European policy is not a bit better. I think our children will suffer badly for the mistakes our parents and we are responsible for, no matter if they live in America or Europe.