Stop the America-bashing!

[satyajedi]

Originally posted by Manstein3
@satyajedi
You forgot Turkey, heart of the former Osmanic Empire, which was an imperialist nation on its own, and Japan!

I forgot neither. Turkey / the Ottoman Empire was taken apart, piece by piece, by the British and French from 1922-1924. Yes, Ataturk ruled throughout that period, and no, it was not technically 'conquored', but the foreign domination was clearly there.

And Japan? Who wrote the Japanese constitution? I think that qualifies as domination, although you're right that we never 'conquored' Japan. Although, I suppose if you're calling America a non-European nation, then Japan is also an exception.

-Satya

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by siredgar


Chinese territorial expansion is characteristically different from European colonialism, don't you think?

Yes, inasmuch as slavery did not play a part in Chinese conquest, presumably because the only form of slavery used by the Chinese (with the exception of the Mongol period of rule) was slavery as a result of non-payment or defaulting on debts.

However I take issue with the idea that the Chinese did not consider themselves superior in a similar way that Europeans did... it is difficult to see how any nation/empire that routinely refers to other peoples as barbarians (hung mao i) or dwarf pirates (a term initially derived from descriptions of the Japanese, but then used to describe all pirates, regardless of ethnicity) and insists on the superiority of the Confucian way of life, doesn't have some kind of superiority complex. How do vassal states, for instance, achieve this inferior status? By the Chinese imposing their will on them, through political, cultural and ultimately military means- sinicizing Vietnamese or Koreans or Oirats or Tatars or Uighurs, means imposing a culture or set of norms or beliefs that again, presumably the aggressor sees as superior.

[siredgar]

Molly:

Yes, the Chinese had many unpaid laborers, but most of them were Chinese, too.

Sagacious Dolphin:

This complex led to actions beyond merely scoffing others for their "backwardness" or even subscribing to a racially-based ideology. It led to slavery and colonialism targeted against non-Europeans.

Many people of Ming China thought they were superior to others, even Westerners. However, they did not go on to enslave other peoples based on race. In fact, they tried to encompass different cultures into their civilization. Some peoples, in effect, eventually became a part of "Han" China. Others, the Chinese realized, could not be "Sinicized". Either they fought back (like the Vietnamese) or had too much of their own distinct civilization (like the Koreans).

For the past 500 years, Europeans have dominated global affairs. Unfortunately, the legacy that they will leave will include racially-based slavery and colonialism. In fact, this superiority complex is still quite prevalent throughout Europe and its settlements today.

[Dauphin]

This complex led to actions beyond merely scoffing others for their "backwardness" or even subscribing to a racially-based ideology. It led to slavery and colonialism targeted against non-Europeans.

For the past 500 years, Europeans have dominated global affairs. Unfortunately, the legacy that they will leave will include racially-based slavery and colonialism. In fact, this superiority complex is still quite prevalent throughout Europe

Are you trying to imply that Europeans are still for racially based slavery? I doubt you mean this, but that is the implicit statement I read in it.

I already said that all leading nations have a superiority complex - be it China, Europe, America etc.... Many Americans beleive their way to be the best way, many Europeans feel superior for their "socialist" tendency.

What I also said is the results of the complex is different. Some people see superiorty as a position of power, others see it as a position to help those who are inferior. It is not the feeling of superiority that is the problem, it is how it is acted upon.

[Arrian]

My God, this thing has actually settled down into a reasoned discussion.

I, as someone who has studied history and cares about what occurs beyond the borders of the USA, am frustrated by many of my fellow citizens, who know little of the outside world and care even less what the outside world thinks - unless America is criticized, which gets an angry, irrational response (many of whom, it seems, are related to me)

However, I am equally annoyed by people who spew nothing but conspiracy theories about the USA plotting world domination (some of the writers of the aforementioned Guardian, which I often read). There is definitely a segment of Western Intelligentsia that believes the USA can do no right - ever. No one seems to have any objectivity. That's what drives me nuts. Call a spade a spade, yes, but also give credit where credit is due.

One of the main problems in international relations is that most people aren't really capable of rational, dispassionate, discussion of issues. There is just too much emotion involved. This, of couse, lends itself to demagogues, who prey upon those emotions. Northern Ireland, Israel & Palestine, India and Pakistan... it's everywhere.

What really angers me most about my country's foreign policy is that it provides ammunition (politically speaking) to demagogues and extremist groups. Our extremists and their extremists prove each other right, and the rest of us get to go along for the ride.

By the way, on the superiority issue... citizens of powerful, wealthy nations always think they are superior...and those that once were, but are no longer, always resent it.

Just friday ramblings... agree or disagree, please do so without anger.

-Arrian

[Serb]

Originally posted by Giovanni August

I think America should be in the game because they were and they are very important in later History!
The Axis would probably won WW2 if America would not exist!

I don’t like Americans because they know World history in their own way. Your knowledge of history is based on Hollywood’s movies, but not truth. If your knowledge were based on real facts, if your opinion about WW2 was based upon studying of real documents, archives and statistics then you never dare to say that America is defeat AXIS.

The Axis lost WW2 not because of America existed. America’s influence on results of WW2 is VERY SMALL, almost nothing. . The AXIS loses WW2 because Hitler attacks Soviet Union and I’ll try to explain to you WHY.
If only your knowledge about WW2 was not based upon movies like “Save private Rayne” or the most stupid film I ever see –“ The enemy at the gates” in that case you’ll know that main battles in WW2 was between Germany and Soviet Union. The number of troops and weaponry involved in conflict between these two nations cannot be compared to any others armies. Try to understand facts- America invade Normandy in 1944, before only few month until the war was over, Soviet Union fight against Germany during almost FIVE years (1941-1945). Whole yours invasion forces was about two million of soldiers it is 15 times less then our CASUALTIES (about 30 millions of soviet soldiers and civilians was killed during five years of war). We paid the highest price in this war, try to imagine 30 millions of people, it can be compared to population of entire countries. We have such huge losses because we fight against major AXIS forces. If you call invasion in Normandy a huge military operation, then we call it a routine offence operation, there is nothing remarkable in such kind of operation. You don’t know about real major battles of WW2 like battles near Kiev, Bryansk, Smolensk, Moscow, Odessa, Sevastopol, Stalingrad, Kursk, Leningrad, Kenigsberg, Praga, Berlin and many others. It was the bloodiest battles in human history. Ask about WW2 an AXIS veteran or German military historian if you don’t trust me, he will told you that main German army was defeated by Russians. I think if you say to him that yours tiny army in 1944 crushed Hitler’s colossal war machine for the period of few month he will laugh long at you. German’s war machine was beaten by another colossus – Soviet Union, not by few American marines from beyond the ocean. And finally, if I am still not convince you that you are mistaken then look at map. Try to find Russian capitol- Moscow this is where AXIS forces were in winter 1941, and then try to find a Volgograd (former Stalingrad)- this is where AXIS forces were in 1943. Germans occupied Territory between these cities. Then try to find Berlin, Prague, Budapest, or any other capital of former Warsaw pact countries. This is where our army was in 1945. Our soldiers went thousands miles from Moscow to Berlin, liberate huge part of our own territory and almost whole Europe. Then try to find Normandy on map, and try to calculate distance between Normandy and Berlin, this is territory liberated by yours marines who fight against boys from “Hitler Yougent”, but not AXIS regular forces, because remaining German regular army fight on Eastern front. Actually fascist prefer to surrender to Allies then to Soviet Army because they did terrible crimes to our people, crimes you can even imagine they feared of our punishment. You don’t know what horror they bring to our lands in 1941, you don’t know what it is- a war on own territory, America never have such war. You call Pearl Harbor a national tragedy, for us it’s just on day of war, try to imagine Pearl Harbor a 365 days in year, may be then you can understand what year 1941 was for us. During this year we lost the most industrious and most populated part of our territory, fascists burned whole towns with citizens alive. The destruction they bring to our land can’t be compared to anything. But even after that was able to concentrate remaining resources and defeat them. What was Americans doing in 1941? They dancing and drinking beer in their pubs and listen news from Europe deciding how long Soviet Union can stand against unbeatable AXIS forces. I think you were surprised when invincible AXIS army lost battle for a first time in December 1941 near Moscow. It was FIRST military defeat of AXIS, until that time fascists was victorious in every battle or campaign.

The only reason because America is powerful country now it is because while European countries destroying itself during WW2 America have no destruction of their territory, and big human casualties, actually during this war America become a very rich country.
And now you DARE to say that they defeat AXIS?

[yin26]

Well, I daresay had we not entered the war, you'd be speaking German.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Whoop! And there it goes again!

Sorry yin, but the "we saved your asses" line has had its fair share of exposure here. All due credit, but where're the OTHER reasons?

[MrWhereItsAt]

Have you all noticed, though? How posters from so many countries kinda unite to mock America, and then proud Americans fight back, and it just escalates from there?

It looks like we've found something most of the world agrees on at last. If only it was this easy in other things...

< Ireland >
"Why the hell should we give up our weapons to the Brits and live in peace? After all that they've done to us?"

"Well, it would REALLY piss the Americans off."

"Think so? DEAL!"

< The Middle East >

"There will never be peace as long as this Zionist outpost continues to illegally possess Jerusalem - that city belongs to Islam!"

"If you stop hostilities we can all get together and poke fun at Americans"

"Count me in then!"

Ah... What a world it would be....



But what do you think is the reason for this? And no "'Cause America is kewl and otha countries is sux," morons please. Intelligence, people!

[yin26]

All due credit, but where're the OTHER reasons?

First, I never claimed that the U.S. did it alone. And I never claimed they made the biggest sacrifice. Hell, if we had had it our way, it would have stayed a 'Europe problem.' I'm not saying that's a good way to think, but it underscores that we didn't want to be involved in the first place.

However, to say that the U.S. entrance in WW2 *didn't* save a whole big number of asses it to just ingore reality. Does that mean we should be the heros? Well, the UK seemed pretty damned heroic to me, and the Russian casualties are astounding.

So I'll leave it with this: For any one nation to claim it was the deciding factor in WW2 is simply ignorant. By the same token, to ingore the sacrifices made is not only ignorant but sad.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by yin26
Well, I daresay had we not entered the war, you'd be speaking German.

May be it's arrogancy like that, what makes some others not like Americans. As for you, yin, I would suggest you to go back to school for a couple of years, and as far as I can see, better not to an American.

[yin26]

LOL! Sure, guy. Want to compare academic records or something? Want to sleep with my wife? Internet pissing contests are so hilarious!

You're right ... Hitler didn't want to own Europe or anything. He wasn't busy stacking up, oh, more than 6 million bodies or anything. My bad.

[Harovan]

There must me something true in your signature.

[yin26]

And in my posts above! LOL

[MrWhereItsAt]

Originally posted by yin26

However, to say that the U.S. entrance in WW2 *didn't* save a whole big number of asses it to just ingore reality

Like I said, all credit to the US for their involvement, but where are the other reasons for the "US is betta" argument - wait, that doesn't constitute an argument. For that rather narrow view?
Why is it that it is always that, and it always returns to WWII?

Didn't France help out against England in the War of Independence? I don't know exactly what they did, but shouldn't you consider the French with some respect for helping establish your nation in the first place? Yet the French are mocked chronically by all of the (admittedly small number of ) Americans I know.

WTF is up with that?