Stop the America-bashing!

[Harovan]

Serb, are you trying to argue with everybody? Without having a superior force the Germans hardly could have knocked at Moscows door after only 4 months of war.

Hey, I know about the fact, that some of the german generals were in soviet schools. We've been allies before Hitler betrayed you. And I agree with the superiority of the T-34. But when the war started, most of your divisions still were either not motorized or had light BT-5, BT-7 or old monsters like the T-26. T-34 and KV-1 were great tanks but very, very rare at the battlefield. The same to your planes. I-16's were no match for the Me-109 or the FW-190a. I read most of your military literature (Shukow, Popjel, Pokryshkin etc.) and believe me I know what I am talking about.

No doubt, that the relations changed within the first years of war, the Russians brought enforcements from Siberia and the T-34 (later the JS tanks) and the modern planes got into mass production, and fate of Germany was sealed.

[Dry]

For those of you who are more interrested in historical facts than just emotional declarations, here is a good site.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WW.htm

Until yet I didn't found there anything I could disagree about...

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Serb
P.S. Germans have superior air force for the first year of war because most of our planes were destroyed on airfields during first hours of war.

Do you wish to state, that most of your planes were located within 100km of your western borders? Don't make me laugh . That would have beed incredibly dumb, no? I think a lot better of the soviet military of these times!

[Serb]

Originally posted by yin26
You see, this is just the point: You didn't understand my post. And now you don't understand my telling you didn't understand. Wanna try Round 3?

Anytime.
I will improve my English during next few months. May be you’ll have to spend your time for something useful too? For example you can take a couple of history lessons from Sir Ralf or you can take few lessons of Russian, to be able to translate some of our favorite sayings like- “posle draki kulukami ne mashut”

[Harovan]

"After fighting don't swing your fists"... what does that mean?

Anyway, I also didn't want to offend you, Serb, just was trying to put some things straight. By the way, do you know, that the German 37mm antitank gun was unable to break the T-34 armor and the soldiers called it "military knocking device"? A small joke in very hard times...

[yin26]

Even if I took a bunch of history courses and posted my findings here, you'd misread it and be silly again. Thanks but I'd rather clean the inside of my computer case for dust.

[siredgar]

Yin, in as much as I am a fan of yours, I don't think it's really called for to criticize someone's English skills here. As we've all seen, there will inevitably be some misunderstandings with our friends from non-English speaking countries.

In fact, it's quite arrogant and "American" to expect everyone else in the world to speak English, don't you think? Personally, I think Serb's English is great and I only wish I could speak Russian like that.

Actually, while reading his post, I realized how fortunate we all are to be able to share a dialogue with people from all over the world and get a different perspective on world affairs. Civilization is an amazing game that encourages us to explore and expand our knowledge and Apolyton brings us together to share our ideas and exchange that knowledge. I think we can all agree that we have both taught AND learned so much from each other.

Anyhow, I have to say that Russia bore most of the burden of World War II. The same goes for China, which did most of the fighting in Asia against Japan. I was truly shocked when I had first learned how many millions of lives were lost there (estimated over 20 million!) I am certain that Germany's biggest mistake was opening a two-front war, particularly against such a formidable opponent as Russia.

However, the U.S. did tip the balance in favor of the Allies against the Axis. It also played a key role in providing a lifeline to Britain during its "neutrality" period. We take a lot of credit for entering the war so late in the game, but I also strongly believe that the Axis would have eventually prevailed if the U.S. did not join in the fight.

Perhaps the same will happen now for the war against terrorism?

Aren't you glad we're on your side again? <-- American arrogance.

[jasev]

Originally posted by siredgar
In fact, it's quite arrogant and "American" to expect everyone else in the world to speak English, don't you think? Personally, I think Serb's English is great and I only wish I could speak Russian like that.

Completely agreed. I'll enjoy to see Yin writing in spanish. I've received a lot of jokes about my poor english and even more about my difficulties to understand many posts, and people usually don't think english is just a second (and sometimes, a third) language for a lot of people.

Aren't you glad we're on your side again? <-- American arrogance.

We've been fighting against terrorism in the last thirty years. Of course we're glad you're on our side now. I'm just wondering on which side were you before. <-- European anti-US bashing

Originally posted by yin26
Well, I daresay had we not entered the war, you'd be speaking German.

By the way, I wish to tell you that the US didn't save our ass in the WW2. At least, not in Spain. We continued under a fascist and militarist tirany until 1975. It was installed by the axis powers through a civil war between 1936 and 1939. And it was supported by the US since ~1948. So please don't tell me how thankful should I be because I see no motives.

[Arrian]

ah, the thread rages on

I see WWII continues to be a point of contention.

First off, while I find his posts to be heavily colored by emotion, I am quite impressed with Serb's English. Having been to Russia (for 2 short weeks), I was consistently impressed by the quality of English spoken by many of the people that I met (true, it was a high school trip arranged with an special English language school in Tver). I wish some more of the goodwill I saw on that trip played out on the international stage.

I don't think that anyone who has studied WWII can discount the incredible losses sustained by the Soviet Union, and the amount of damage done to the Nazi forces by the Red Army. If Hitler hadn't invaded the U.S.S.R., it is entirely possible the Axis would have won the war... or at the very least it would have taken much, much more to defeat them. However, Hitler was a meglomaniacal nutcase, as we all know, and his goal all along was to gain lebensraum (sp?) to his east, which meant attacking the Soviet Union. Luckily for the Germans, Stalin had done a wonderful job of gutting the Red Army's officer corps a few years earlier, which contributed to the difficulty they experienced fighting the Fins. This is not to say that the Red Army had no good officers, far from it, but many of its best, most innovative commanders were removed for "political" reasons. Further, despite repeated warnings of his intelligence officers, he refused to put the divisions on the western border on alert, fearful he would "provoke" Hitler.

As for the USA's involvement in WWII, the old "you would be speaking German if it weren't for us" line is silly, and of course it pisses people off. Heh, they would probably be speaking Russian, who knows? But seriously, the USA did make quite an impact - and Russian losses would have been even more horrific were it not for the opening of the second front at Normandy and the U.S. supplies that were shipped to Russia, often at great loss, in the artic convoys. Many nations can, in all fairness, claim to have played a major role in the defeat of the Axis. That's why it's called a WORLD War. I think the problem is that many people, in recounting the value of their own nation's role, discount the roles of others. I don't see that there is any need for that. The Russians can remind us of Stalingrad, Kursk and numerous other battles on the way to Berlin, the Americans can talk of Normandy, the Bulge, and the Pacific battles against Japan. The British can point to the Battle of Britain, Normandy, El-Alamein, and the convoys. The list goes on and on and on, so please don't take offense if I've left something out for the sake of brevity.

So Yin, Serb and everyone, take it easy, ok?

-Arrian

p.s "Ich bin ein Berliner" - a great example of what happens when Americans try to use foreign languages. Thank you, JFK.

[siredgar]

There's nothing wrong with being "emotional" about what you believe in.

To me, it signifies that you have deep feelings about your ideas. I think Yin and Serb, both passionate people, are speaking from the heart and I appreciate that.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by siredgar
In fact, it's quite arrogant and "American" to expect everyone else in the world to speak English, don't you think?

Despite the fact, that that you are right , but shouldn't the Americans first try to talk English themselves? As far as I can hear from UK citizens, there's not much of Oxford English left in their language.

Don't flame me on that, it wasn't meant serous.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Serb, are you trying to argue with everybody? Without having a superior force the Germans hardly could have knocked at Moscows door after only 4 months of war.

Hey, I know about the fact, that some of the german generals were in soviet schools. We've been allies before Hitler betrayed you. And I agree with the superiority of the T-34. But when the war started, most of your divisions still were either not motorized or had light BT-5, BT-7 or old monsters like the T-26. T-34 and KV-1 were great tanks but very, very rare at the battlefield. The same to your planes. I-16's were no match for the Me-109 or the FW-190a. I read most of your military literature (Shukow, Popjel, Pokryshkin etc.) and believe me I know what I am talking about.

No doubt, that the relations changed within the first years of war, the Russians brought enforcements from Siberia and the T-34 (later the JS tanks) and the modern planes got into mass production, and fate of Germany was sealed.

I believe that you know what you talking about.
In fact I think that you are one of the few people here who really know history well. But question was about soviet technologies of that time. I was tried to convince guys who think that soviet army was week and technologically backward that they are mistaken. Yes, I agree with you that our modern tanks and planes were rare on battlefield in first year of war, but they existed. By the way, when the war started, German’s army does not have their best tanks like Tiger or Panter they were put into mass production later.

Germans has knocked at Moscow’s door after only 4 months of war because of many reasons. First of all I want to say that 4 months is a very long period of time for ‘Blitz kreeg’. No other European army was able to stand against Hitler’s forces for such long period of time. Should I remind that Germany crushed France during 44 days? In fact Hitler’s army don’t know military defeat until December 6 1941 when Red Army defeat them near Moscow. These 4 months was not easy walk for Hitler’s army. Germans never have such huge casualties before. Only during first two months of war Germany lose 400 000 of its soldiers, almost 2000 of planes, 50-65% of tanks. Of course Red Army’s casualties was much more, but when Hitler was informed about German’s casualties he said “ If I only knew that Russian have so many tanks, I’ve never start this war”. Yes, you have very strong army but you have meet with very strong opponent.

I can understand how do you feel when you see how American movies describe German’s soldiers of WW2, when one “brave American marine” shoot a dozen of Vermaht soldiers with one shoot. Americans know nothing about your army. The army, which conquers Europe during only 2 years, cannot be weak like their movies describe it. Actually Hitler’s army was one of the strongest armies humanity ever saw. Our two nations fight against each other many times. And no matter that we were enemies often, we always thought that Germans are very strong warriors, with old military traditions. And I know that you are feeling the same about us. Few days ago I’ve finished to read the memoir’s of general Hunter Blumentrit (He was the head of field marshal phon Kluge’s HQ) he treat Russian soldiers like strong warriors and very dangerous foe. Many of yours generals like Rundstait, Brauhich, Galder, Kestring and others (please forgive me if I type their names incorrect) try to warn Hitler that war against Soviet Unions is suicide. They were the generals who fight against us in WW1 and they know Russia very well.

Now I want to talk about German’s successes at summer- autumn of 1941. We underestimated the strength of your army. Stalin’s military doctrine was to hit enemy on enemy’s territory with little casualties. It was offensive doctrine. We was not ready for defensive war, we don’t have any serious fortification on our borders. Even thinking that Red Army may retreat counted as a crime. We were preparing for attack not for defense. But Hitler strikes first. That’s why the most part of our planes were located within 100km of our western borders. Yes, it was dumb. Stalin make big mistake and we paid very high price for that.

P.S. By the way, do you know that 100km wasn’t critical operational range for bombers?
In august 7 of 1941, while German’s forces almost knocking in Moscow doors, 15 soviet heavy bombers were take off from airbase in Eizel island, near Tallin. Each of them carried 500 kg of bombs and they have only one target- Berlin. Our planes cover 900 km and successfully bombed German’s capitol. Every plane returned from that assignment. Bombardments of Berlin continued until September 5, then we was forced to abandon airbase at Eizel Island. This was a real shock for the world. It was unique operation at that time, and the date September 7 is the birthday of long-range aviation. I want to remind this fact to guys who think that soviet army was not technologically advanced.

[Serb]

Re: ah, the thread rages on

Originally posted by Arrian
I see WWII continues to be a point of contention.

As for the USA's involvement in WWII, the old "you would be speaking German if it weren't for us" line is silly, and of course it pisses people off. Heh, they would probably be speaking Russian, who knows? But seriously, the USA did make quite an impact - and Russian losses would have been even more horrific were it not for the opening of the second front at Normandy and the U.S. supplies that were shipped to Russia, often at great loss, in the artic convoys. Many nations can, in all fairness, claim to have played a major role in the defeat of the Axis. That's why it's called a WORLD War. I think the problem is that many people, in recounting the value of their own nation's role, discount the roles of others. I don't see that there is any need for that. The Russians can remind us of Stalingrad, Kursk and numerous other battles on the way to Berlin, the Americans can talk of Normandy, the Bulge, and the Pacific battles against Japan. The British can point to the Battle of Britain, Normandy, El-Alamein, and the convoys. The list goes on and on and on, so please don't take offense if I've left something out for the sake of brevity.

So Yin, Serb and everyone, take it easy, ok?

-Arrian

p.s "Ich bin ein Berliner" - a great example of what happens when Americans try to use foreign languages. Thank you, JFK.

I am really impressed by your knowledge of history, especially that fact that you know many things from our own history. I am absolutely agreed that – “the problem is that many people, in recounting the value of their own nation's role, discount the roles of others.” Tell me how many Americans know about Russian’s real role in WW2? How many of them think like you? It was the only reason why I’ve started my posts here. It was Allied victory not only American victory. Tell me how many computer games about WW2 (wargames for example) have mentions that Soviet Union was one of the countries that fight against AXIS?
Yes, may be I was too emotional in my post, but there is nothing I can do about that. I become very angry when I hear that someone try to reduce the role of my country in WW2.

I would like to thank you for been impressed by my English. I know its bad, but I am happy that someone can understand my post.

[Harovan]

The "Panzers vs. Riflemen" example described the situation at the beginning of the war and was merely a try to "say it with Civ3 words". Sorry if it sounded offensive. In fact, the 4 German tank armies (Kleist, Guderian, Hoepner, Hoth) were stopped mostly by infantry (and by the upcoming winter, and by lack of fuel, and by lack of supply, and, and, and). Stalin pumped lots of infantry armies in the battle and took severe losses to break down the German offensive. Also, sending a big part of experienced officers in Gulags in 1937-38 was probably not such a good idea.

The T-34 mass production came only in 1942-43, the IL-2 and the JS-2 only at the end of the war. Especially the JS-2 was surely a match for the Panther and Tiger series, and even for the Tiger II. There was not such a big number of them though, the main job did the T-34. Although they generally looked bad against Tigers (which were rare), huge parts of the German tank forces were Panzer III and IV and this way no match for the thousands of simple but strong T-34.

EDIT: Ah, I forgot about the 100km thing. Well, it was just an example, I just can't believe that a country that's roughly 10000km from West to East concentrates all it's airforce in a small area. By the way, Germany did not have long range bomber forces, only light 2-propeller bombers kind of He-111, Do-17 and Ju-88.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
The "Panzers vs. Riflemen" example described the situation at the beginning of the war and was merely a try to "say it with Civ3 words". Sorry if it sounded offensive.

There was nothing offensive in your words. I’ve understood what you wanted to say.
Edit: Of course it was not entire our Air force, but major part of it. There is nothing unusual in concentration of forces in region most likely for breakthrough of enemy’s defense. I think that major part of Germans aviation was concentrated beyond the other side of our frontier. Am I mistaken?