Stop the America-bashing!

[Harovan]

Originally posted by yin26
And in my posts above! LOL

No offense intended, yin. I don't want to bash neither you nor America. Just I can't hear this "we saved your asses" attitude anymore. If you state it to a French, or even to a German, it's still rude but not wrong. But to a Russian, oh dear! Sorry, but this sounds either like some super-arrogancy or like a very little knowledge in history. And that (and not the wish to argue) was the reason of my posting.

Gotta go to work, it's late. Wish you a nice evening.

[Raion]

A lot of people in the USA know about WWII. There has been many wargames about WWII. One is V4V about 1993, and in fact many people asked for the Verikila Luki scenario for that computer game (Sorry about the spelling, but I am too lazy to look it up). Plus, Russia did not have much of any technology at the start of WWII, and only had men to fight with rifles against the Germans. Yes, some of the battles of WWII in Russia were herrendous.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Raion
... the Verikila Luki scenario ...

Must be Velikiye Luki (translated Grand Meadows). Yea, you are right, at the beginning of WWII it was like Panzers meeting Riflemen, plus Germany had a superior airforce. And the battles in Russia, especially 1942 (Stalingrad) and 1943 (Kursk et al.) were really terrible, for both sides. There was not much left to beat in 1944/45.

[yin26]

Sir Ralph: Peace! Actually, I was not thinking of the Russians, as you point out. Have a good evening yourself. War is just a crap business no matter how you cut it...

MrWhereItsAt: Actually, I don't tow the 'America is Betta!' line. One of the reasons I moved overseas 5 years ago is to get a clearer view of the world, and IMO, the U.S. is gonna need to work harder than ever before to enjoy its glory days.

And you rightly point out that in the War of Independence, had France not stepped in, Americans would be speaking English. ...um, wait... I mean, BAD English! LOL!

[Serb]

Originally posted by yin26
First, I never claimed that the U.S. did it alone. And I never claimed they made the biggest sacrifice. Hell, if we had had it our way, it would have stayed a 'Europe problem.' I'm not saying that's a good way to think, but it underscores that we didn't want to be involved in the first place.

However, to say that the U.S. entrance in WW2 *didn't* save a whole big number of asses it to just ingore reality. Does that mean we should be the heros? Well, the UK seemed pretty damned heroic to me, and the Russian casualties are astounding.

So I'll leave it with this: For any one nation to claim it was the deciding factor in WW2 is simply ignorant. By the same token, to ingore the sacrifices made is not only ignorant but sad.

You are Americans do not understand simple things. Hitler does not want to owe Europe actually he already owes Europe in 1941, if you don’t know about this then look at old maps. Red Army, but not yours marines liberated countries occupied by fascist’s forces. We save this people, not you are. You do not want to understand this because since your childhood you learn different, own version of history based on twisted facts, dreams, fantasies, lie, anything but not on real facts and truth. That’s why history is teaching you nothing. You think that for USA could be better if Hitler aggression stayed a 'Europe problem.’ You do not understand that Hitler do not want to capture only Europe, he want to owes whole world. If he was victorious in war in Europe and Africa, I can assure you were the next target for him, and very easy target, because your army was ten times weaker than Hitler’s war machine.
Look’s like that you can feel danger only when something bad happens to you are. During last 2 years our president try to convince you that terrorism not our ‘own problem’, that terrorism is WORLD’S PROBLEM. We start the war against terrorism 2 years ago and during this two years NO ONE of you not understand why we are doing this. You pressured on us, said that we must stop war in Chehnya, that we must find a diplomatic solution, you meeting chehen emissaries in Washington like honorable freedom fighters, emissaries of mans who blow whole civilian houses with sleeping people within, in Moscow, Kizlyar and other cities of my country. Only when terrorist strike you are at 11 September, you start to understand that it is not ‘our own problem’, terrorism is world’s problem. By the way with how many ben Laden’s emissaries you tried to find a diplomatic solution? I think that sad events of September 11 must teach you that you can’t stay away from ‘Europe’s problems’ because sooner or later this problems strike on you are, and strike very hard.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Thanks, yin. I have seen it can take guts to agree with someone else on this site and not get caught up in the wars .

I gotta say that the Americans I have met who have taken options like yours - to get out of town and see some other places - have been friendly, open-minded and good to know. In my view this disarms the opinions of those non-Americans I know who lived in - and dislike - America. When Americans see some of the world, it gives them a better world-view and makes the foreigners who meet them less inclined to believe the stereotypes.

Goes for all of us though, I guess. /shrug/

[MrWhereItsAt]

A good speech, Serb. And certainly with some excellent points.

Let's hope that everyone can concede that much.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Raion
A lot of people in the USA know about WWII. There has been many wargames about WWII. One is V4V about 1993, and in fact many people asked for the Verikila Luki scenario for that computer game (Sorry about the spelling, but I am too lazy to look it up). Plus, Russia did not have much of any technology at the start of WWII, and only had men to fight with rifles against the Germans. Yes, some of the battles of WWII in Russia were herrendous.

Well, I am so happy that a lot of people in the USA know about WWII.
If you ask ANY Russian man or women who live today- “ Are your grandfather fight against fascist’s in WW2?” then the answer will be “Are you nuts? Of course he was.” The modern population of Russian is children and grandchildren of men who survive this war. My grandfather has two brothers he is only survival of three brothers. This is typical situation for any Russian family. Can you imagine how any Russian feel when he hears that Americans save our asses. If only I can see a face of man who dare to say such words, then I’ll show him how danger Russians could be in anger.

[yin26]

Serb: You didn't understand my posts. If you want to attack 'us Americans,' do yourself a favor and study the language a bit better.

MrWhereItsAt: Cheers!

[MrWhereItsAt]

But hey, minor language errors aside (it ain't easy with a language with a different alphabet, yin. I have enough probs with French & Spanish! You should appreciate language difficulties, even if you don't have 'em yourself), there were some good points I haven't seen before. Perhaps they were a little... emotive, but well made nonetheless.

[Harovan]

Yin: With all respect, but with a bit of good will Serbs statements can be understood. I won't dare to ask you about your corean (as an American you might be of a corean descent which I don't know), but I know both Russian and English a bit and can assure you, there is not much in common.

Serb: Calm down , save your emotions, all understand the Russian role in WWII and that without the Russians, Hitler could hardly be defeated, at least not so quick.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


Must be Velikiye Luki (translated Grand Meadows). Yea, you are right, at the beginning of WWII it was like Panzers meeting Riflemen, plus Germany had a superior airforce. And the battles in Russia, especially 1942 (Stalingrad) and 1943 (Kursk et al.) were really terrible, for both sides. There was not much left to beat in 1944/45.

Well, you have to ask your veterans about “Katusha”- first rocket artillery, widely used by Soviet army since 1941. You can ask about tanks IS-2 or T-34, btw T-34 is best tank of WW2 in its class. You can ask about IL-2 a legendary fighter of WW2. Many of our weaponry were unmatched for that time.
Before the war Soviet Union has supreme army, modern and experienced. Don’t you know that many German generals before the war learned in Russian military academies? Gudarian your brilliant tank tactician is one of them. He represents SOVIET tank school, because soviet tank school was the best at those times. Do you know what is the biggest tank battle of WW2? Its battle near Prohorovka, THOUSANDS tanks from both sides fight there against each other during few days!!!
So saying that we don’t have technologies and fighting only with riflemen’s is nonsense.

P.S. Germans have superior air force for the first year of war because most of our planes were destroyed on airfields during first hours of war. We have to rebuild our air force almost from nothing.

[Serb]

Originally posted by yin26
Serb: You didn't understand my posts. If you want to attack 'us Americans,' do yourself a favor and study the language a bit better.

MrWhereItsAt: Cheers!

Thanks a lot for your advice, but may be you know Russian better then I know English?
I know that my English is not good, but I can’t be silent when I read such absurd, like your previous posts.

[yin26]

You see, this is just the point: You didn't understand my post. And now you don't understand my telling you didn't understand. Wanna try Round 3?

[MrWhereItsAt]

Relax, Serb. Hang around long enough and you'll see yin isn't all that evil.

I think we all take your point.