Stop the America-bashing!

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by mdogg
Hello, America is the only super power left in the world. As far as the resentment that the europeans have for the U.S.A try and think back to a little thing i like to call WWII yeah maybe they should rethink that , and thank us for once

Perhaps you should understand why there is European dislike of Americans. Your post displays one of the more common hallmarks.

[Giovanni August]

Originally posted by jamorobo
"I think America should be in the game because they were and they are very important in later History!
The Axis would probably won WW2 if America would not exist! "


What do u mean if they had not existed.
If America had still been under Englands control when WW1 and WW2 started i think the wars would of been over quicker or not started at all as England and its empire would of had control of over half the land in the world. So i don't think either Hitler or Wlihelm would of wanted england to be an enemy since England would bring the whole of its empire to bare against them.

Also the Axis would of won if England or Russia had not existed. Russia especilly as the germans were fighting on 2 fronts and if there was no russia ALL of germany's forces would be rushing thru france and probibly England.

No
What i mean is if nobody ever settled there, rebeled to British power and starrted a new nation!

[mdogg]

Do you think that when england was on top of the world she wasn't arrogant? I feel that we have done alot for other nations in the world today and they show us very little respect in return. The fact of the matter is that no matter which way you look at it we are the only super power left in the world; this fact alone entittles us to a spot in the game. As for the fact of our young age that just adds to the list. We have done so much in so little time.I am not trying to be rude or arrogant but that is how I feel. I mean isn't that what a forum like this is for, to exprdess your opion. We as Americans should have a spot in this game.

[mdogg]

please forgive my typing

[Dr. K.]

On who should be included:
The problem is that the word "civilization" is a vaguely defined, and rather subjective term. Looking at a large Random House dictionary (I'm too lazy to look it up in the Oxford English Dictionary which is only 5 feet from me :-), I see multiple definitions, and I will site two:

1. "An advanced state of human society, in which a high level of culture, science, industry, and government has been achieved"

6. "Cities or populated areas in general, as opposed to unpopulated or wilderness areas".

By definition 6, many many political entities could be considered Civs; by definition 1, fewer. Either way, I think the USA must be considered a civilization. As the expansion pack threads show, there are many other entities which by consensus of the community are qualified to be included. I think the choice of the USA is no better or worse than choosing any of the others, but as has been pointed out on numerous occasions, it's inclusion will help at the box office. I personally would like to see the Spanish, Dutch, Inca, Aksumite, Viking, Mongol, and either Turkish or Arab. If nothing else, it will make the game more diverse and fun.

Various jingoistic stuff:
As for "American" inventions, nobody in the USA is originally "American" except the "indigenous, native Americans". Even *this* statement is open to question, since it is thought that the currently-assumed-to-be autochthonous Americans originally came across the Aleutian archipelago from Asia. But recent archaeology in the pacific northwest has suggested that there were people in North America even prior to these that apparently have quite a different genetic makeup. Enough of that.

Therefore, many of the "American" inventions listed have actually been made by various and sundry Europeans several generations removed. So what? We Americans are not a particular ethnicity, we are of many ethnicities. Which doesn't really make us different from other nations in fact. Should we say that Isaac Newton wasn't really British? He was an ethnic result of intermixing from Angles, Celts, Saxons, Jutes, Normans, Vikings, and people indigenous to the Isles (I believe the Irish call these last "Tuadadunnum" or something like this) so therefore theory of gravity wasn't really British? This is silly. I would like to consider an invention American if it occurred on American soil.

Two of my favorite American inventions deserving of mention:
-Jazz
-Pizza

As for WWII:
American intervention, like the efforts of Russia and Britain, was necessary but not sufficient to defeat the Axis machine. All three were most necessary, none sufficient on their own. And let's not forget the French resistance, the help of the ANZACS, partisan Italians, Maltese, etc., and the fortunate insanity of one Adolph Schickelgruber. And please, let's give the USA some points for being of major help in rebuilding world economies after the war, especially in the defeated nations.

P.S. I dislike "Ugly Americans" who are arrogant in their ignorance of other peoples and their history and culture. There is much we all don't know.

p.p.s. Sorry for the long post.

[Dauphin]

And let's not forget the French resistance

Yes they did a lot to help Operation Torch. Killing Allied soldiers was nice of them.

Sorry, but that is a soft spot with me.

[mdogg]

It is not a question of who could have single handly defeated the axis powers (or just germany for that matter) it is the fact that there was a french resistance for a reason, THE FRENCH WERE OCCUPIED. The point is that america step in and "helped out" the french and really "helped out" the brits when they were in need and it seems people treat us like chumps. well i geuss that the past is the past and we should all just keep it in the backs of our minds and say hey every country lost people in the war now lets just try to get back to talking about civ III

[Giovanni August]

PIZZA an AMERICAN invention?
Sorry but I don't think so!

About WW2
Without America Axis power would win that war! But America alone could not defeat the German Army alone (I don't consider the Italian Army because it was too weak compared to the German one)! But they defeated the Nazis with the Soviet Union and the remaining of the British Army!
But I must say that America helped a lot Europe in the post-war years offering money and military help for the European reconstruction!

To answer to the one that said that America is the only super-power left... well I don't think so! Economically Europe and Japan are as competitive as the USA Militarily China, Russia and Europe are really strong!

America must be in Civilization3 but don't start to be arrogant saying you are the strongest and that you saved the world!


Merry Christmas everybody

[Dr. K.]

On inventions

Originally posted by Giovanni August
PIZZA an AMERICAN invention?
Sorry but I don't think so!

Giovanni, I appreciate your rather level-headed opinion of the USA. But I have to point out that no matter how you might not like it, pizza was invented by Italian-Americans on the the east coast of the USA and therefore, by my standards, it is an American invention (same reasoning as telephony and Alexander Graham Bell, even if he was originally from Scotland). Sure the Italians had focaccia and various other things similar to pizza, but not pizza itself. By the way, I must insert that the French invented the teleGRAPH, not the telephone. I think the first telegraph line was between Paris and Lyons (or maybe it was Marseilles) in the 1840s or 1850s. I believe this line also eventually had primitive Fax capabilities (another French invention)--VERY advanced!

BTW, Giovanni, I love focaccia, various types of macaroni, and in fact most things entirely and originally Italian (such as their fashion, music, and food). Oh, and did I forget Gina Lollobrigida, Sofia Loren, and Laetitia Casta?!

Viva Italia!!

How about this--maybe we can all say something *NICE* about a country other than our own?! Happy holidays to all.

[Giovanni August]

Laetitia Casta?!.....
....
How about this--maybe we can all say something *NICE* about a country other than our own?! Happy holidays to all.

Ehm Laetitia Casta is French....
I didn't really know the History of pizza that's why I just said "I don't think so" and not "You are wrong". Thanks for explaining!
But I still prefer the Pizza you can it in an Italian pizzeria instead the one you can eat at Pizza Hut....

I think America is a great country and right now I'm doing an exchange program with my school so now. I'm in High School in Olympia (WA). I really like it! The only thing I don't like is your drinking laws! You must be 21 to touch a beer !
In Italy there is no drinking age !
But I'm really happy to be here right now! I'm having a wonderful experience and most of the American people I met (can't say all of them but let's say the 95%) are really good people and it's very easy to meet friend here!
PS
Especially girls-friends !

[yin26]

Hey, keep your hands off our women, you Italian brute! American women are too innocent, I tell you! *cough*

Now, if you are including a few Italian girls in this international exchange, then all is good. God Bless the Global Village!

[mdogg]

Giovanni,

[mdogg]

Giovanni,

- Europe is not a nation and therefor it can't be a super power.
- Japan is practicly ruled by the U.S. and a super power has both military and economic power. ( japan is told by us what they can have and isn't allowed to consturct a offensive millitary.)
- China is a valid argument but still an argument. China doesn't disclose what it has to the world so we don't know. China most likely has a military to mach ours in nubmer or surrpass it the latter being more paulsible given their huge poulation, but when is the last time China shouldered any other country's burden. the U.S. is left alone in that department
- Russia's military is now working for half of the knowen world so how can it be so mighty

I would like to point out that this is not stubbern "americanism" but an attemp to highlight the reasons that I think my earlier statment is correct no hard feelings I hope.

[Giovanni August]

Originally posted by yin26
Hey, keep your hands off our women, you Italian brute! American women are too innocent, I tell you! *cough*

Now, if you are including a few Italian girls in this international exchange, then all is good. God Bless the Global Village!

Eh eh eh eh!
I bet that is the same thing that the Korean boys told you when you went there..... isn't it? !

Originally posted by mdogg
- Europe is not a nation and therefor it can't be a super power.
- Japan is practicly ruled by the U.S. and a super power has both military and economic power. ( japan is told by us what they can have and isn't allowed to consturct a offensive millitary.)
- China is a valid argument but still an argument. China doesn't disclose what it has to the world so we don't know. China most likely has a military to mach ours in nubmer or surrpass it the latter being more paulsible given their huge poulation, but when is the last time China shouldered any other country's burden. the U.S. is left alone in that department
- Russia's military is now working for half of the knowen world so how can it be so mighty

What you said is right! (I don't know if what you said about Japan is true but i suppose it is)
But economically Europe acts as a unique nation! and pretty soon there will be an European army and (hopefully) no more wars on European soil.

[Dr. K.]

We rule Japan...NOT!!!

Originally posted by mdogg
Giovanni,
- Europe is not a nation and therefor it can't be a super power.

Super power is another completely undefined term. As such, I don't see how you can arbitrarily decide whether any country or league of nations is one or not. And it really doesn't matter. We happen to be the most powerful nation militarily and economically right now, but the future belongs to India and China, as they have the most people, and their technology will eventually catch up. That is, if we all make it to the future without being destroyed by a nuclear conflict. Suicidal terrorists+nukes = big problem.

Originally posted by mdogg
- Japan is practicly ruled by the U.S. ... ( japan is told by us what they can have ...

Well, this is a ridiculous statement, and illustrates why citizens of other countries think Americans are ignorant and arrogant (I will remind you I am American too). The parviscient should be more pauciloquent.

It is true that Japan at this point is not allowed by the terms of the surrender after WWII to construct a military; however, Prime Minister Koizumi is pushing for these restrictions to be lifted, and I imagine that shortly they will.

Although the USA was instrumental in creating the new Japanese constitution after the war, we in no way rule Japan. For instance, the Japanese people made it clear that under no circumstances was Hirohito or his family to be harmed, killed, or even accused of any wrongdoing in the war, despite the fact that evidence suggests that he had prior knowledge of several atrocities committed by the Japanese, including the rapes of Nanjin and Manila. Furthermore, several members of the emperor's family were personally involved in these actions. We had to look aside as the imperial family fell blameless because the Japanese people held the emperor as somewhat of a deity and incapable of wrongdoing. They--40 million strong--would have fought to the death otherwise, and this even after the devastations wrought upon Nagasaki and Hiroshima. In fact until this last election (and probably even now) many of the powerful people in the ruling party have significant ties to the old imperial system in place before the war. We do not rule Japan--not even close.
______

Oh and Giovanni: I didn't know that Laetitia Casta was French, so you got me there. Hmm, it's an Italian name, but then again Napolitano Buonaparte was Italian too...well, Corsican or Sardinian.
There is no question most Italian-American pizzerias are vastly superior to fast-food joints such as Pizza Hut. You need to have New York pizza, and in particular, I recommend Totonno's and Patsy Grimaldi's in Brooklyn if you ever travel to NYC.