Stop the America-bashing!

[Harovan]

I don't know exact numbers. Time to read a book again, I guess.

[Arrian]

Re: Re: ah, the thread rages on

Originally posted by Serb

Tell me how many Americans know about Russian’s real role in WW2? How many of them think like you? It was the only reason why I’ve started my posts here. It was Allied victory not only American victory. Tell me how many computer games about WW2 (wargames for example) have mentions that Soviet Union was one of the countries that fight against AXIS?

Well, from the entertainment standpoint (computer games, movies, etc.) there seems to be a belief on the part of the entertainment industry that the product will only sell here if it is all about Americans. They may be right, but I am generally appalled by it, since I usually spot their little "changes" to history immediately.

As for what Americans believe... well, there are 250+ million of us, so I don't know exactly, but the people that I know tend to have a much better sense of history than the average American - which isn't really hard. I majored in history in college, as did some of my friends, and it has always been a passion of mine (instilled by my father, who grew up in Wales, and thus received a British education). My group of friends, however, is probably not very representative of what most Americans know/think about history, as we all have the benifit of a college education, at a pretty good liberal arts school.

Unless one chooses to study history at a high (I would say university) level, you are limited to whatever the public school system provides. America's public schools vary WIDELY in their quality, but overall aren't very good, particularly with regard to history, which is usually lumped in with "Social Studies." I remember correcting my American History teacher several times during my Junior (3rd out of 4) year of high school (she had incorrect dates for various battles and things). Now that's pathetic...and I went to a very good school! Most of the time alloted for history in public schools is spent on American history. Much of the "world history" is done in the lower grade levels, and thus the kids don't learn much about the rest of the world.

Here is something scary. There was a survey done of high school seniors in the U.S. during my senior year of high school. This survey asked very basic questions, like "who was the first president of the United States?" and things like that. I was horrified to learn that 50% of American high school seniors were UNABLE TO FIND THE PLACE WHERE THEY LIVED ON A MAP. How many do you think could find Afganistan? It boggles the mind, doesn't it?

Another story to illustrate my point: In college, a friend of my (then) girlfriend asked me to to help her prepare for a test on WWII. I started asking her basic questions so that I could figure out the best place to begin. She didn't know when it started and when it ended. She didn't know how it started. At this point I'm pretty amazed, so I start backtracking. She didn't know how Hitler came to power... she didn't know anything about the Treaty of Versailles, she didn't know anything about WWI. At this point, I decided we needed several hours, and I started in 1914.

This was not a poor, uneducated person who slipped through the cracks. This was a relatively affluent, educated young woman who just didn't know ANYTHING about the biggest, bloodiest war this world has ever seen.

-Arrian

[Bereta_Eder]

Russia took the massive burden of WW2 and to it and to ourselves we own our freedom.

But because they were communist the west doesn't admit it. Also because it watches hollywood movies too.

I remember reading how the Greeks defeating the Italians and thus obliging the Germans to come attack us gave time to the Russians to catch the Germans in the harsh winter.

But Greece was liberated by english troops from the Germans.

Everyone who fought did something. Russia did the most.

[molly bloom]

I have found this thread quite illuminating- having been brought up in Coventry- a city made notorious by Goering's avowed desire to make 'coventration' a synonym for saturation bombing, and twinned with Volgograd- formerly Stalingrad.
It occurred to me, for instance, how the myth of the Japanese Army's supposed invincibility was propagated after their defeats of American and British Empire and Chinese forces. What a pity then that more people didn't know (and still don't) about Zhukov's defeat of the Japanese in Manchuria- in 1939.

http://www.danford.net/nomonhan.htm

'General Georgi Zhukov was one of the few generals to survive Stalin's 1937-39 Purge of the Red Army. He was probably the most talented military leader in the Soviet Union and was certainly the most successful.
Zhukov's first victory was the Battle of Khalkan-Gol, fought in July and August, 1939, near Nomonhan, Mongolia, as part of the undeclared war with Japan. This battle, little noticed in the West, ended Japanese Army attempts to invade Soviet Asia and led Japanese militarists to look elsewhere for ways to expand their Empire. Thus, it led indirectly to the bombing of Pearl Harbor.

Zhukov's next success was the defense of Leningrad, during the first autumn of the German invasion of the USSR, in 1941. Moved to a higher command, he lead the Western Front-Army in the defense of Moscow, holding back the Germans once again. In 1942, Zhukov directed the defense of Stalingrad and the succeeding counteroffensive which trapped and destroyed the German 6th Army, in 1943.'

[Willem]

Originally posted by War4ever


that said.... iroquois are a little weird to have in civ but then again....they were slaughtered by the "amazing" american culture and warfare......

this is a mockery of reality of course.....so take with a grain of salt

Or maybe an opportunity for symbolic revenge.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Rock and Roll - don't think that's a US invention, either.

"The blues had a baby and they named it Rock and Roll."

Rock & roll started out as an amalgamation between Blues and Country & Western, both American music styles. Even the Beatles got much of their inspiration by listening to American artists.

[Serb]

It occurred to me, for instance, how the myth of the Japanese Army's supposed invincibility was propagated after their defeats of American and British Empire and Chinese forces. What a pity then that more people didn't know (and still don't) about Zhukov's defeat of the Japanese in Manchuria- in1939.

This is the point. Many people do not know about our victories and belief in silly myth like myth about invincibility of Japan's army. I'll be not surprised if some of you do not know that Soviet Union declared war against Japan in 1945 and started a big groud offence on Far East.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by paiktis22
But because they were communist the west doesn't admit it. Also because it watches hollywood movies too.

Yea, I guess that's the point.

Originally posted by paiktis22
I remember reading how the Greeks defeating the Italians and thus obliging the Germans to come attack us gave time to the Russians to catch the Germans in the harsh winter.

Sounds like the biggest problem of the Germans in the first years of the war were their own allies. Same occured in North Africa (what the heck had the Germans to do there?), and around Stalingrad the Soviets broke mainly through the lines helt by Germany's allies, thus surrounding Germany's 6th army. Don't take me wrong please, I am sure Germany would have lost the war also if Mussolini wouldn't have made his brainless raids, but I think the Duce helped the Allies a lot, by his way.

What concerns Zhukov: I agree, he was an outstanding military leader (is he a Russian GL? I doubt...). I read his memoires several times and am every time fascinated. But he was a leader of Stalin's inner circle though, and morally not always clean.

[Harovan]

Arrian, I just read your last post and heartly thank you for it. I know both kinds of Americans, the silent, well educated and honest, and the loud, half educated, propaganda vulnerable with the "We are the greatest and we saved your asses" attitude.

I also don't like the way like many Germans act in foreign countries. Often I'm ashamed to admit to be one of them, not because of Hitler, but because of the unworthy attitude of some of my country-mates.

I am 100% sure, these 2 types of people exist in every nation, be it Americans, Russians, Germans or whoever. It ain't a reason of America-bashing at all.

[Dry]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I am 100% sure, these 2 types of people exist in every nation, be it Americans, Russians, Germans or whoever. It ain't a reason of America-bashing at all.

It is an illness of great (large? big?) nations.
What is funny with some psots here is that what is said on Americans is what is usually said in Belgium about French people.
When you can spend your whole life inside your own country, move to another city for another job, go on holiday to the sea, the mountains, without leaving the country, the only sight you have of foreigners are
- your own media, highlighting the dramatic events
- those foreigners immigrating to your country
The larger the country, the greater the problem.

This last source of information, I should explain by 2 examples:
1. Our (Belgium) former colony is Congo. When you speak with congolese people living now in Belgium, most of them will say they like Belgium: small country, people are not arrogant. So one may think "hey, look, most of them like us, we were the best, nicest colonial nation is the world".
Well, if you think twice, you will agree that when people want to immigrate, they go to/stay in a country they like. So I assume that Congolese immigrating to France will say that belgians are just arrogant people and they prefer the french. Same with Congolese immigrating to the US.
2. When you speak with US people living in Europe, you will hear that they prefer european life style and you will hear by their mouth all the 'bad' aspects of US lifestyle. I guess the same if true for Europeans living in the US.

If you don't experiment the life in other countries by yourself, you have only twisted sight on them.
And it is easier to go abroad when you live in a small country.

Belgium: go 100km north you're in Netherland, 100km east you're in Germany, 100km south you're in France, 100km west you're in UK.

[Viper2263]

Originally posted by jasev


Sorry, bad examples. The Inca only lasted as a civilization about 200 years, and they were a true kingdom (more exactly, an empire) only for 100 years until the spanish arrived. The aztecs founded Tenochtitlan on 1325, so they lasted almost 200 years. And the vikings... well, they achieved great navigation advances, but I'm not sure they are a true civilization. I tend to consider them more as barbarians.

I realize this might be kind of late, but...

I have a Norweigen girlfriend who might disagree with that.

[Viper2263]

Originally posted by Ribannah

Balloons and gliders long before them, and many others working independently on the same ideas.

Watson was simultaneous with Franklin. But there were a lot of steps to be taken, making this a global accomplishment imho. Franklin couldn't have done it without knowledge of the Leyden jar, for instance.

Self propelled flight was the key with the wright brothers, if they weren't so familiar with bikes and aluminum (of which they built their 16?hp engine) and their techniques of control (including statically unstable aircraft, the key component in fighters, and wing warping). All of these components added together are how the Wright brothers made powered flight possible...they didn't just take others ideas...they made the whole idea possible...no one else had their aircraft manuvering experiance. Guidance and control is their contribution. Up until their advent of the airplane, gliders were controlled by shifting weight (ungainly).


Speaking as a desendant of Franklin, he made many many other contributions, most having to do with electricity (the lightning rod), but others in mechanics, politics, and diplomacy.

[siredgar]

Serb, while I do not doubt the competence of some WWII Russian generals and the courage of most of their soldiers, I had the impression that most of the Russian forces during this time were poorly-trained, poorly-armed conscripts. Also, it is widely believed that a large factor in Russian strategy during WWII was similar to Chinese strategy during the Korean War-- "flooding" the enemy with masses of troops. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but that is partly why so many died.

[Harovan]

Without wanting to offend Serb, but I have the same opinion. It took place especially in the first 2 years of the German-Soviet war. Tanks and planes still weren't available in a sufficient number, and conscript armies with 3 inf divisions of 10000 soldiers each, with 2 regiments of artillery (as written by Zhukov, for comparison German divisions had 20-25000) were quickly pumped out.

[yin26]

In fact, it's quite arrogant and "American" to expect everyone else in the world to speak English, don't you think?

Let's get one Goddamn thing straight right here and now: If you are going to attack WITHOUT FU*KING UNDERSTANDING WHAT I'M SAYING, better by God better prepare to sit down and hear a lecture.

By the way, I'm fluent in Korean and working on Chinese. I could give a good God piss that you speak Russian and English. Impresses me not at all. You want to impress me? Go back and actually understand what I was saying before you started spouting crap.