America isn't old enough to be in Civ3

[Sun Zi 36]

Well, i wouldn't have as much knowledge as u. Yes, i agree there are differences. However, the amount of difference depends on whether you view it relatively or empirically. If u compare Chinese and Japanese by themselves, then u can spot a lot of differences, and even more as u indulge deeper and deeper into studying them. But if u take back a step and view the difference between China/Japan comparative to other cultures, u may find they do not differ that much at all. That is perhaps the reason why our views differ. Agree?

[oriel94]

I hesitate to enter the China-Japan discussion, as I'm far from expert. I do, however, remember reading a chapter from Paul Johnson's brilliant "Modern Times" describing the background to Japan's invasion of China in the 1930s. Johnson took the view that the similarities - not the differences- between the two cultures/civilizations were the more superficial. In particular, he argued that the Japanese conception of time (linear) gave them an important edge over China with its far more fatalistic cyclical conception. (There were, of course, numerous other cultural and material factors which he discusses, but the time thing sort of sticks in my mind).

Something similar was, I think, later argued by Huntingdon.

Euro-lefties will delight in the knowledge that "Modern Times" is prescribed reading for CIA and US State Department trainees (even though Johnson is an English Monarchist! - the Anglosphere strikes again).

Yours,

One of the "Ubermensch"

[oriel94]

Hey, I've just been upgraded to Chieftain! Yippee! And all for blowing off on this thread. I must assume the promotion is due to quantity and not quality.

[Drake Tungsten]

Sun Zi: I agree with you that the perceived differences between civilizations depend greatly on your point of view. The differences between Japan and China certainly pale in comparison to differences between Europe and Asia. That said, I think the differences between Japan and China are very significant, easily as significant as the differences between various European countries. This is just my opinion though, so let's not dwell on this topic. My opinions certainly aren't gospel...

Oriel: It's funny that you should mention the CIA and the State Department. I just applied for both of their internship programs last week and am hoping to get accepted. I really want to work in the US Embassy in Japan, but if I get stuck in Washington, that will be alright as well. Maybe I should start reading "Modern Times", just in case.

[oriel94]

Drake

Good luck, bon chance and viel glueck with those applications. Read "Modern Times" now and get a head start. They might even make you ambassador to Japan when you start discussing Johnson at the interviews!

[Fresno]

Arent:

You were not overbearing, you had your point calling oriel such. Some of his statements were not that qualified.

I'm sorry, I misunderstood you. Thank you very much for your support.

Drake Tungsten: I already explained two times what I meant. Please read my previous posts.

[Fresno]

About America: Although I still think America shouldn't be included as a separate civilization, I now think it might be a good idea to make it possible for available civs to establish colonies, which can later fight for independence, just like in Europa Universalis. In this way you could include the USA, Mexico and others, without having the problem of Americans discovering The Wheel and establishing Washington in 4000 BC. How does everybody think about this compromise?

[Sun Zi 36]

Well, i haven't played Europa Univeralis. I still think that would create problems relating to the definition of civilisations. I don't think independence of colonies into nations mean anything like they are immediately detached to the mother country culturally. National independence are things that happen below the civilisational level. It has got little to do with culture anyway.

[Oligarf]

About those colonies. In Civ II civilizations were randomly split up when the capital was taken. Something like that could also happen with colony-like cities or areas.

[Fresno]

Originally posted by Oligarf
About those colonies. In Civ II civilizations were randomly split up when the capital was taken. Something like that could also happen with colony-like cities or areas.

That's what I mean.

Originally posted by Sun Zi 36 National independence are things that happen below the civilisational level. It has got little to do with culture anyway.

Why would there be schisms in Civ1 and 2 then?

[Sun Zi 36]

Well, that is just an idea created by the game makers to try to make the game more excitiing by introducing a special feature.

I dont think the split really should mean national independence, bcos civs are entities that share common culture. It is possible although highly unlikely that there's suddenly a shift in culture within a civ just bcos the capital has been captured.

[Sir Hawkeye]

I would argue that revolutions typically occur after cultures have diverged, due to lack of understanding and shared values, e.g. American Civil War.

After the capital falls, there is much less unifying force within a nation/civ, and thus the schism.

[cavebear]

I just wanted to add the America should be included in the list of civs because some of us just plain *have* to have cities we can remember the names of, and it is much easier to have the computer provide the names automatically.

And don't bother telling me I can do that myself, I just hate to mess with the programming...

[Sun Zi 36]

"I would argue that revolutions typically occur after cultures have diverged, due to lack of understanding and shared values, e.g. American Civil War.

After the capital falls, there is much less unifying force within a nation/civ, and thus the schism."

Yes i agree that this could happen, but it is very highly unlikely that the disturbance can be to the extent that the entire CIVILISATION is broken apart. To use your American Civil War example, although culture may have diverged, the disturbance was not so servere that u could say the North and the South are difference civilisations.

"I just wanted to add the America should be included in the list of civs because some of us just plain *have* to have cities we can remember the names of, and it is much easier to have the computer provide the names automatically. "

And that is a compelling reason why America should be a civ? I would think not.

[Fresno]

Originally posted by cavebear
I just wanted to add the America should be included in the list of civs because some of us just plain *have* to have cities we can remember the names of, and it is much easier to have the computer provide the names automatically.

You mean they can't remember foreign names?

And I thought Dutch education was bad...