America isn't old enough to be in Civ3

[Mister Hand]

The addition of "Culture" to the game alone justifies the inclusion of America. At no time in history has the influence of a culture been so widespread (for good or bad).

Also, it helps sell copies in the Southern U.S.A. to those who have always had a hankerin' to kick Lincoln's ass!

[oriel94]

My list of 'civilizations' for Civ4 (some of the names - marked '?' - are in draft form but they represent the essential idea). Some are modern, some are ancient, and some are both. For easily offended or thin-skinned types, the order is entirely random and signifies nothing:

West Europeans (French, Germans, Spaniards, Italians etc) ?
East Europeans (mostly the modern slavic countries) ?
Anglosphere (Americans, British, Canadians, Australians, NZers) ?
Sub-Saharan Africans ?
Latin Americans ?
Arabs
Chinese
Indians
Japanese
Romans
Greeks
Persians
Babylonians/Sumerians ?
Hebrews/Jews/Israelites ?
Egyptians
Meso-Americans (Aztecs, Incas etc) ?

[Sun Zi 36]

"You pointedly disregarded everything you could not explain away and expect me to infer that language + idea = culture. I'll put it this way, if I take flour, eggs, and bread and combine them, do I get bread? No, I get something else. The American culture is significantly different than that of Britain, Canada, or any other English speaking culture."

This paragraph is just so confusing and ambiguious that I need clarification . Is the egg/flour/bread example supposed to support the first sentence or the last sentence?
If the first, u have just nullified the link between the last sentence and the rest of your posts. The last sentence just stands alone empty with no backing.
If the example is supposed to support America's distinct culture, which i think is more likely, then it still seems confusing. What specific aspects of culture (since its not ideas or language) are u talking about that is different in America?

Some of the specific aspects of culture that are the SAME for "Anglosphere" is already argued by Oriel94 above (3days ago or something) so I won't go into it again.

The argument that the mixture of culture in America is a different "culture" (i m already noting self-contrdiction as i type this) is flawed. Simply put, if it is a mixture of cultures, then it is not one culture. If it is one distinct culture, then it cannot at the same time be multiple different cultures. Yes, I admit that different cultures can transform into one culture over time. But America still consists of multicultures, not one culture. it is just too tempting to fall into the cage of confining culture in terms of political borders or geographical terms.

"The addition of "Culture" to the game alone justifies the inclusion of America. At no time in history has the influence of a culture been so widespread (for good or bad).

Also, it helps sell copies in the Southern U.S.A. to those who have always had a hankerin' to kick Lincoln's ass!"

The first paragraph still fails to appreciate the difference between country and culture. America is a mulitple of cultures, as i said b4.
The second paragraph fails also to appreciate the topic of the discussion. Selling the game has got nothing to do with culture and thus whether America SHOULD be a civ.

oriel94: I mostly agree with ur list from an entirely cultural uniqueness point of view. But as some others pointed out, differences between cultures within continental Europe may be more than contenental Europe vs Anglosphere. I dont think Chinese and Japanese are really that different either, compared to maybe Spanish and German.

Further, even if ur list is right accoording to cultural uniqueness, i think cultural influence also needs to be assessed (some even thinks that this is the only thing to assess to justify America in the game). Since the difference within "Western Europeans" is not small (while difference within Anlgosphere is) and individual Western European cultures did have large influence, some of them should be included separately. Maybe combine Latin American/Meso American since they did not have large influence and Latin American is not really VERY unique culturally.

[oriel94]

We are conducting this rather fascinating discussion in a particular context. At least I think so. The context, or so it seems to me, is whether the Americans can be considered a civilization for the limited purposes of Civ3. In a sense, every country, every region, and perhaps every family has its own unique culture in some sense. But not every country/region/family can have its own civilization.

According to Harvard professor Samuel P. Huntingdon's influential 1996 book, "The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order" there are only 9 true 'civilizations' in the modern world (he makes no argument about ancient or extinct civilizations). Wanna know what they are?

Western
Latin American
African
Islamic
Sinic [Chinese and Chinese derived/influenced]
Hindu
Orthodox [ie Eastern Orthodox Christianity]
Buddhist
Japanese

On Huntingdon's account, the only country which is co-extensive with a single culture is Japan. The US is in the 'Western' civilization, not surprisingly.

If the context of our discussion is who should be a civ for the purposes of a computer game where the number of players is necessarily limited (i.e. not the complexities of the real world) then Huntingdon is perhaps not a bad place to start. We might do a very little refining, renaming and adding a few ancient/extinct civilizations to bring us up to the maximum limit *for the game* - we're talking about a game here folks, or at least that's what I thought the forum is for.

As you know, I would make the Anglosphere a separate civ for the game. That's not to deny strong primary links between the Anglosphere and Huntingdon's Western civilization, or strong secondary links between the Anglosphere and Huntingdon's Orthodox and Latin American civilizations. I won't reiterate those reasons, which I have set out at [too much] length earlier in the thread.

For the purposes of the game, *as currently structured*, I think having the Americans in is fun even if it's not strictly accurate to regard them as a Civilization in every sense and for all purposes. I bought Civ3 to have fun.

Maybe the civs in Civ4 (oh happy day!) will be structured differently.

All of this is, of course, IMHO.

[Drone #9]

Originally posted by HalfLotus
Since when is America not a civlized nation?

Ever since Hollywood and Vegas were founded

[Drake Tungsten]

Originally posted by Fresno
Oriel99:The way you describe the inhabitants of this "Anglosphere" compared with other Europeans sounds very much alike the übermensch-untermensch-thesis (not the way Nietzsche thought about it, more the way it was interpreted by the Germans in the 1930's).

If your intention in making this statement was not to imply that Oriel was a Nazi, then I apologize for my comments. However, I don't think I was mistaken in my judgement. I don't know how the "ubermensch-untermensch thesis" or "Germans in the 1930's" could refer to anything other than Nazism. Implying a person is a Nazi is offensive, especially when the person did nothing to make them appear like a Nazi. Nothing Oriel has said has even been in the same galaxy as Nazi ideology, so such an accusation is unexcusable.

[oriel94]

A nazi - who, me?

For what it's worth (although it's a bit off-topic), I would describe myself as a conservative in the 'Anglosphere' sense. That means I support small government, low taxes and low levels of state regulation/interference in the lives of the citizens. What makes me different from a libertarian is that I believe the state should be strong in a few important areas - defending the country's borders, maintaining law and order, upholding the rule of law and supporting a clear system of public morality. All this is directed to one important end: creating and preserving an environment in which the people can be free and self-governing without the state acting as either nanny or kindergarten cop. I have long gotten used to some lefties confusing this with nazism. C'est la vie.

I will not enter into any correspondence on this somewhat off-topic point.

[Drake Tungsten]

We seem to have a lot in common, Oriel, at least in our political views. That's why I took special offense to the implication that you are a Nazi; if you are considered one then I must be too. In America I'm a moderate conservative, but in Europe I'm a fascist! Go figure.

[Sun Zi 36]

I also have that book "The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order". There are a few criticisms I want to make of his divisions. Firstly I think the difference between the South-East Asians and Middle East people justifies them being in different civilisations even if they share the same religion. His Buddhist civlisation seem to contain peoples who share little in common except Buddhism (and even that is weakly shared as there are many different branches). And, as I said, I don't really think there is too much difference between the Chinese and the Japanese compared to maybe the Spanish and the Germans. I think he may have concentrated too much on religion and ideals in his divisions. Of course, our purpose of division is entirely different from his so it is no suprise we may be coming from different angles.

I also think having Anglosphere as a civ is a good idea. But I think it is neither fun nor correct to have America as a civ. Anglosphere and America can't exist together as civs. I think it's more fun to have America and all its cultural Allies speak with one voice as a single civ than just America.

My political views would probably be classifies as "left" in your (conservative) terms. I think people should have a social conscience and thus governments should be there to uphold social justice and quity. Market forces does not do well in these areas. I don't think this means "the state acting as either nanny or kindergarten cop", just that people should not be handicapped in their lives bcos of their social economic backgrounds or prejudices on things that do not relate to their personal quality.

[oriel94]

Sun Zi

I agree that you can't have both the Anglosphere and the Americans as a civ - it must be one or the other. I don't endorse everything that Huntindon says, but it's a good starting point for a game called 'Civilization'. I will observe my self-denying ordinance about discussing your politics, which are probably of the reasonable sort which conservatives need to have around in order to keep them on their mettle.

[Arent]

I think huntington made Japanese a distinct culture cause they actually have their own religion (shinto).

drake: Not everyone in Europe. There are just a lot of people wary of extremism cause of WW2, sovjet union et cetera. They don't want this to happen again and thus can sometimes be a little overbearing/lecturing.

Arent

[Fresno]

I'm not going to account for things I didn't say

Oriel, Drake Tzuntzen & Arent: I've had it with people putting words into my mouth. This was the last time I participated in the Nazism-discussion.

The only thing I would like to add is this: I am not someone who calls every conservative a Nazi, or every socialist/social-democrat a communist. I am a leftist liberal and I respect everyone, wether he/she agrees with me or not.

[Arent]

Fresno:

You were not overbearing, you had your point calling oriel such. Some of his statements were not that qualified.

I can understand Drake cause some people really exaggerate their point and I had some nice (one way) conversations so far (not only with Europeans that is, but also with some Usaians). That's why I said not everyone in Europe takes it that far.

Arent

[Arent]

double

[Drake Tungsten]

Fresno: I don't mean any offense. Please, just explain what you meant by saying Oriel's views were similar to the ubermensch-untermensch thesis held by Germans in the 1930's. That comment seemed to me like a reference to the Nazis, but if you didn't intend for it to be taken that way then please tell me what you did mean. I don't want to make you out to be something you're not.

Arent: I fully understand that not all Europeans are overbearing and can even sympathize with those who are. The events of the 20th century are more than enough to make Europeans wary of extremism. I just don't want fear of extremism to be used to stifle intellectual discussion.

Sun Zi: I think you'd be suprised at the amount of difference between Japanese and Chinese culture. It's really a fascinating subject, which is probably why I spent most of my college career examining it.