America isn't old enough to be in Civ3

[Asesino_Virtual]

Yeah, NYC looks great with the Statue of Liberty... and...oops, they are no more!
Thats demostrates how easy is to destroy a Wonder of the World in a war.

[Juggernaut]

300 years of existence isn't long enough?

[KrazyHorse]

*Begins counting on fingers*

1776+300 = 2001?

[orange]

KH - American civilization didn't begin in 1776. A case could be made for it beginning in the early 1700s.

[Craftsman]

Wow! Four pages of replies!

Like Steve Clark said:

So you are saying that Civ3 should be a historical simulator instead of a civilization-based strategy game? That's a tired, irrelevant argument, imo.

Civilization is only a game!

It´s, like Firaxis is advertising, "a what-if world"!

Where is Brasilia? (Brazil´s Capital City)

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by orange
KH - American civilization didn't begin in 1776. A case could be made for it beginning in the early 1700s.

But I'm only keeping out of the way of this one due o LOTM's astute observations that the civs in Civ are nations, not civs. The argument for the US in Civ3 gets a lot weaker if you go back to "civ" as a requirement and not "nation"...

[Dauphin]

Especially considering how the Americans of the first half of the 18th Century were proud to be part of the English Empire.

[Dugrik]

A nation is a group of people who share a language and culture. If they organize themselves politically they become a state. The history of the German folk prior to the 19th century is one in which their territory was divided into many many independent states but grouped under loose political entities such as the Holy Roman Empire, the Confederation of the Rhine, and the North German Confederation.

Austria was the leading German state until after the Napoleonic wars when Prussia began to rise in influence. Beginning in 1865, Otto von Bismark, the chancellor of Prussia, orchestrated three wars which culmanated in the founding of the German Empire in 1870. Austria, although a German state, was isolated and excluded from the new empire to ensure Prussian dominance.

The point is that it is wrong to confuse the development of the culture of the German people with the rise and fall of any particular state or confederation of states. The nation has been around for millenia. The states will rise and fall and rise and fall as states are wont to do.

[Dugrik]

Hmmmm, looks like I got sidetracked by a side arguement.

My point about ignoring particular states and instead focusing on the cultural development of the people who comprise that nation is equally applicable to the United States. For three hundred years the American people have been forging a set of traditions and values which have revolutionized the world. We have exported democracy to hundreds of nations. Our corporations have world-wide presence. (Consider the phrase Coca-Cola diplomacy.) While the time frame is small compared to 6000 years of civilization, the acceleration of the changes wrought has been blinding. (This is certainly reflected in the game where a modern turn comprises one or two years compared to an ancient turn of 100 years.) The time period may be short, but more has been done to influence the world and humanity. Thus it would be silly to exclude the American people from the game.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Asesino_Virtual
Yeah, NYC looks great with the Statue of Liberty... and...oops, they are no more!
Thats demostrates how easy is to destroy a Wonder of the World in a war.

And this is amusing to you how?

Since I have to see the hole in the skyline every day, maybe I'm a bit touchy about it, but considering 5,400 people were slaughtered, I'd think you could show some class about it.

[Fresno]

Originally posted by jdd2007
how can u not want americans. we have given u freedom, money, and McDonalds...what would life be without coke, the internet and SID MEIER *looks for a bowing smilie, grumbles*
its ur choice... we have given u all of the above (well maybe not freedom, but we saved europes ass in ww2 )

Without America Europe would not be the same indeed; but what would America be without Europe?

As I said when I started this thread, I know the USA is the most powerful nation of the world today. But Civ isn't only about how the world looks right now, it is about history. And I'm sorry, but the role America played in history is still not very large.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Dugrik
We have exported democracy to hundreds of nations.

Name ten.

[Oligarf]

It's about rewriting history, so the history that it is now doesn't matter that much.

[jsw363]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
Name ten.

There are numerous examples including, but obviously not limited to: Mexico, Japan, S. Korea, West Germany, Latin America. We may not have had the best methods, but we did export...

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by jsw363


There are numerous examples including, but obviously not limited to: Mexico, Japan, S. Korea, West Germany, Latin America. We may not have had the best methods, but we did export...

That's funny...

I thought German democracy already existed under Weimar.

Other places, maybe, but I wouldn't look upon Latin America as a ringing success for American-exported democracy. The US has a long history of exporting dictatorships soutwards, not democracies.