America isn't old enough to be in Civ3

[J10]

Originally posted by SerapisIV


If you want to argue in terms of years, use the Civ3 system. Founded in 1776, America has been around for 180 or so game turns, or even longer the the Egyptians, Babylonians, Romans, and just about every ancient civilization. Then America more then adequately fits.

THe Egyptian civilization has been destroyed???

Wow I missed that. My bad.

And u also totally missed my point, but okay, you won, America more then.. than adequately fits. I will boycott the game if it's not in... wait, it's ALREADY in there.

[Oligarf]

'Americans discover Navigation'

Explain this, Americans.

[Fresno]

America is not the holy empire some Americans seem to think it is. It was the supporter of many dictators in the third world. In Congo, for example, Mobutu was supported by the American government.

Democracy can't be claimed as invented by any nation. Democracy also existed in some way by peoples outside the Western world (some native American tribes for example) and in the ancient Europe as well. In it's current form it was developed by some liberal intellectuals during the 18th century, and it has been improved by socialists in the 19th century. This happened mainly in European countries (like America ).

But back to the point: why should America be in the game? OK, it is the most powerful nation in the world now, but many other countries have been that in their time, and they weren't included either (like the Arabs, the Byzantines, the Austrians).

[Steve Clark]

Wow, Fresno starts off this idiotic thread and then continues to add to his ignorance.

Get a clue, dude, Civ is an ahistorical (look it up in your dictionary) game.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Steve Clark
Wow, Fresno starts off this idiotic thread and then continues to add to his ignorance.

Get a clue, dude, Civ is an ahistorical (look it up in your dictionary) game.

So you would consider it a perfectly acceptable "what if", ahistorical game, even if it summised that US may never have existed (lost th WoI) and Luxembourg was the current world superpower?.



I demand Luxembourg to be in!

[Fresno]

Originally posted by Steve Clark
Wow, Fresno starts off this idiotic thread and then continues to add to his ignorance.

Get a clue, dude, Civ is an ahistorical (look it up in your dictionary) game.

Ahistorical? I'd like to quote Sid Meier and Bruce Shelley in their Designers' Notes, in the Civilization manual:

The central concept to Civilization was that it was to be a "god game," casting the player as the hero and ruler of a civilization over the course of its history.

Furthermore, the fourth chapter of the manual, The dynamics of Civilization, is all about history.

Apparently, Steve Clark, you disagree with the makers of the game. Talking about ignorance

[Dauphin]

Of course there is some ahistorical sides to the game

To have a random map with the Iroquois, Babylonians and Zulus nuking the crap out of each other is hardly historical.

If you want it to be a historical recreation then why bother playing - you might as well just watch to computers play out an accurate recreation of history.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

You Europeens are just all jealous of the US. So jealous that you have to combine your countries to match the GNP of the US and to create The Euro which was supposed to be stronger than the dollar, but now is down the crapper.

What cultural things have the Americans done. Hmm lets see. Besides having our clothing (read blue jeans and t-shirts) pervading all of europe, we have europeens emulating rap (see French rap) techno (see German Techno) Thats not culture you say? Well lets see what else. We have myths and ideals to live up to (Manifest Destiny, Cowboys in Shootouts in the west, Mississippi river boats). i know that these myths aren't true, but thats the same with every culture. The Brits are still hailing the Last Charge of the Light Brigade as a victory, and the Dunkirk Evac as a victory. We have had influencial authors which match, if not surpass Europes authors. (Mark Twain, Ernest Hemingway) America has invented the suburb, another cultural thing. Even though we don't have a veritable cuisine, at least we don't boil everything (including beef) like in the UK

Economically, there has never been a country so strong. The only potential competitor is China, but since they can't get their act together, we are the strongest. Europeen countries can moan about how they have the highest GNP per person, but it doesnt matter if the country has a grand total of 10 000 people. That won't make a drop in the bucket. While ever other Europeen country has at least 6% unemployment, the US has had under 4% until this recession. In fact, the US is so influencial economically, that when our economy goes down the crapper, so does the rest of the worlds.

Militairly, we have the most advanced army/navy/air force ever. We have nukes, and zilllions of way to put one in your own backyard. And while almost every country in Europe has been occupied by an aggresor in the 20th century, the US has enver had enemy troops on its soil since The War of 1812. (Santa Anna was never on US soil, he was on Texan soil) We have lost only 1 war while it seems that the French have lost every one they've gone into. People have been screeming for a XP civ like the Poles (a country who's only contribution is to have been run over by the Russians, Germans, Teutonic Knights more times than I can count) or the Italians (who's army can't even beat a bunch of spear chucking Abyssinians)

For technological contributions, the vast majority of techs discovered since the 19th century have been done in the US. Have any Europeen countries like Poland, or the Netherlands, or Italy invented anything which has revolutionized our thinking or our methods of building things?

Now, lets looks at other Europeen civs to see if they should be included instead of the US. The Netherlands? Western Europeen speedbump. Poland? Easter Europeen speedbump. Italians? Havn't won a war without help since Garibaldi. The Belgians? Another speedbump

So for all you people who say America shouldn't be in, YOU SHOULD STOP BEING SO JEALOUS. JUST BECAUSE WERE THE BEST DOESNT MEAN THAT YOUR CRAP COUNTRY SHOULD BE INCLUDED INSTEAD. AND IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT AMERICA SHOULD BE CUT.

[splangy]

*sigh* America HAS to be in or the game wont sell well, and you guys wont be able to whine that we dont deserve to be in (I know, what a tragedy )

Everyone keeps saying that we arent a civ because the brits settled us, well be that logic France isn't a civ becouse the germans migrated into Gaul, Infact by your logic no one in North/south America, Austrailia, parts of Africa, and parts of South Eastern Asia are countries.

Also, every nation in the world talks about the leader of the free world being the U.S. If you not a Civ when you become the most powerfull nation on the face of the earth, I dont know when you are...

isnt this argument a little old and pointless? Civ is already gold with america in it...

Kinda Sad

[Oligarf]

True, but I will keep them out my game, by force if necessary.

[Fresno]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
Of course there is some ahistorical sides to the game

Yes of course there is. All I'm saying is Civ can't be completely without a large historical component. And that's what I tried to make clear for this "ignorant" Steve Clark

[SerapisIV]

Originally posted by J10
THe Egyptian civilization has been destroyed???

Wow I missed that. My bad.

Funny, I don't remember the Romans keeping much Egyptian civilization after they conquered it, they liked the Greeks a lot better. Oh yeah, and the Arabs when they took over kept a lot of the pharoah's culture, gov', lifestyle...oh wait, they didn't.

[Dauphin]

The Brits are still hailing the Last Charge of the Light Brigade as a victory

Where did you get that from????

Most Brits probably don't know what, when or where the charge was. Mention the Crimean war and they might just recall Florence Nightingale was over there.

In fact the only reference to it that they might know of is "Cannons to the left of them. Cannons to the right of them....."

Most of the cavalrymen died and the survivors had to retreat. So was the charge a victory, because if it was, it was of Dunkirk proportions.

Dunkirk was "a victory" for PR purpose, and no-one sees it as a victory as such. If you want examples of British views on victory then the Falklands and the Battle of Britain are better bets.

In a nutshell, your statement is wholly false.

[Dauphin]

America has invented the suburb, another cultural thing

Riiiigggghhhtt. Is that at the same time they invented the middle class family and the daily commute?

the US has enver had enemy troops on its soil since The War of 1812

The UK hasn't had them ever, since its inception 300 years ago.

I won't dissect the rest of your post and have a one-upmanship debate (), because after all, the English are in and thats all I care about.

[Steve Clark]

Geez Fresno, must I have to explain it again? Your point that America is in the game because it is now the world's superpower is completely irrelevant. When you start a civ game (you have played civ1 or 2, haven't you?), you have to choose a "civ" to play and those to playa against. The names are irrelevant, no more or less important than its color. (Actually color is more important because that dictates the starting order per turn.) They are there just provide "flavor" or "atmosphere". If you don't want the Americans to appear as a choice, just change the line in the rules.txt file to the Dutch or something, or just ignore them. It doesn't matter.

The second that you begin the game, any semblance to actual history is purely coincidental. Sure there are units, improvement, wonders and techs based on history, but they are there to provide the context for the "sweep of time" not to follow any pre-defined pattern.

The definition that I use for ahistorical refers to neutrality, not historical and not un-historical.

Since you are "arguing" for more historical accuracy, I suggest you read this thread...

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28071

You were one of the posters I thought of when I wrote this.