America isn't old enough to be in Civ3

[jsw363]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
That's funny...
I thought German democracy already existed under Weimar.
Other places, maybe, but I wouldn't look upon Latin America as a ringing success for American-exported democracy. The US has a long history of exporting dictatorships soutwards, not democracies.

That's funny too. Would you consider their election of Hitler a resounding success for democracy?
As for Latin America, yeah, we made some mistakes. But most of them are democratic now. (And at least they didn't go commie )

[mactbone]

The Weimar Republic was a failed democracy, not applicable in this instance because it was more often than not legislated by the President. The Congress couldn't accomplish much at all, allowing the president to use emergency powers.

[KrazyHorse]

The Weimar Republic was democratic in its constitution, forms, etc. Just because it ended up failing doesn't mean that its memory wasn't what the people looked to for their example.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Asesino_Virtual
Yeah, NYC looks great with the Statue of Liberty... and...oops, they are no more!
Thats demostrates how easy is to destroy a Wonder of the World in a war.

The Statue of liberty is just fine thank you. The World Trade Center was done in by Muslim extreamists though.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Any nation that has achieved superpower status deserves to be in the game. No matter for how little of a time.

[Drake Tungsten]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
The Weimar Republic was democratic in its constitution, forms, etc. Just because it ended up failing doesn't mean that its memory wasn't what the people looked to for their example.

I have to disagree. The current German democracy is heavily influenced by the American model, especially in its federal nature. The Weimar Republic was never very popular in Germany and was not much more than a gap filler between the Hohenzollern monarchy and the Nazis. To not give America credit for the current German government is to ignore history.

[Dauphin]

To not give America credit for the current German government is to ignore history.

I'll give it some credit, but to believe that it is US democracy is as arrogant as believing that only US forces defended democracy in WW2.

I would bet that Britain gave democracy to more countries than the US. Australia, Canada, South Africa, India etc... (most Commonwealth countries had democracies set up as part of the handover)

[Oligarf]

America is democratic, but somehow I find it strange that George W. Bush is President and that Al Gore had the most votes.

So not to much credit for the American democracy.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Oligarf
America is democratic, but somehow I find it strange that George W. Bush is President and that Al Gore had the most votes.

So not to much credit for the American democracy.

That is because we have a Representative Democracy rather than an absolute one. The above situation is an example of one of the flaws of our system rather than a repudiation of the entire system. Since the American Democracy has been successful in facilitating peaceful, orderly transitions of power for 200 years, I'd qualify it as highly successful, warts and all.

You can't isolate any modern democracy from American influence, just as you can't isolate American democracy from French and British influence. No political systems exist in a vacuum.

[Drake Tungsten]

Originally posted by Big Crunch

To not give America credit for the current German government is to ignore history.

I'll give it some credit, but to believe that it is US democracy is as arrogant as believing that only US forces defended democracy in WW2.

I would bet that Britain gave democracy to more countries than the US. Australia, Canada, South Africa, India etc... (most Commonwealth countries had democracies set up as part of the handover)

I totally agree with you. America played a role in creating the German government, but there was other very important influences. We only deserve a little credit and that's all I want.

I also hate Americans who claim that the US won WWII (in Europe at least). They are ignorant of history and ignore the fact that the Soviet Union and Britain sacrificed much more than America did to defeat the Nazis. To even call WWII a "fight to save democracy" is a misnomer. The Soviet Union certainly didn't promote democracy after the war and I don't think Churchill would've supported Germany if it was a democracy instead of a fascist state. WWII was fought to prevent Germany from becoming the most powerful country on earth, plain and simple. That title fell on us Americans, pretty much by default.

[TCO]

Doesn't matter how old we are. We are the number one market for Civ. So dollars speak and we win.

You can screw up release in any other single country. But the Us is critical. I worked for a global Swiss company and this is what they felt.

[Mikael]

I personally think the US shouldn't be in the game thus I will replace them with the Mighty Finns as soon as I learn how tu use the editor! And the Finns special unit shall be the Ski Infantry equipped with Suomi submachineguns and Molotov cocktails!! Oh yes, oh yes! World domination!

[Jaybe]

I voted "I don't care."
Sure, the British/English shouldn't be in the mix of civs either. We have no documentation of their having writing back then.
OTH, the U.S. broke off from the British, but you can't even have revolutions in the game.

Shucks, I suppose it's only a game.

[JMarks]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


That is because we have a Representative Democracy rather than an absolute one. The above situation is an example of one of the flaws of our system rather than a repudiation of the entire system. Since the American Democracy has been successful in facilitating peaceful, orderly transitions of power for 200 years, I'd qualify it as highly successful, warts and all.

You can't isolate any modern democracy from American influence, just as you can't isolate American democracy from French and British influence. No political systems exist in a vacuum.

Well, if we want to be technical, wouldn't it be a democratic republic? Anyway, the election isn't just based on what the majority of the people want, but is also influenced by the states. Hence we have a senate and a house of representitives. The former representing states (2 each) the later the people. The electoral collage represents both in the election of the president. Sure, I think it could be changed for the better (eg the winner of the state gets the 'senator' votes, but they still have to win the 'representative' votes), but it works. This way small states still get a voice in and aren't completely drowned out by the bigger states in the decision for president.

Aside from that, hasn't this whole argument taken place months ago? I remember arguing in that one too. Didn't the pro-American faction win that one? Hmmm.

[jsw363]

I'd say that it was pretty clear that the US had a large role in promoting democracy and setting up democratic governments following WWII. The British have obviously had a large influence on the spread of democracy, but I think that the subject of American democracy came up as a reponse to someone who said that Americans haven't really made an impact on the world.

To that I'd have to say that America is a superpower and for that reason deserves to be in the game, intellectual, cultural and other accomplishments aside. I beleive that the US is influential in all aspects of modern life and is a civ unique enough from the British civ (just as the Romans are distinct from the Greeks) to be included.

American democracy isn't perfect, but its a really good system... so good in fact that many countries have chosen to emulate it. Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...