America isn't old enough to be in Civ3

[Sarxis]

I think this is a moot point.

Cleopatra living in the 1950s? Roman Ceasars being driven to Broadway in cars?

I think anyone can see what I am getting at.

[Boris Godunov]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the official title of Heinrich the Fowler in the 900s was "King of Germany." And so he was.

Sorry to burst your bubble, my friend, but this in no way indicative of Germany's status as a unified nation-state. Given the way royal titles worked, this is akin to me being named King of the Midwest. Yes, there is a region called the Midwest, but it is not a nation-state or a singular political entity. It's just a region. There was no concept of there being a unified German nation until 1871. That's why they call it the unification of Germany, not the reunification of Germany.

I think you don't quite grasp the Holy Roman Empire. It wasn't a political entity like the Roman Empire. It was more of a symbolic status given to a powerful king, bestowed by the church. While the HR Emperor was allowed to move freely within the [ephemeral] borders of the "empire," he did not have direct political or authoritative power over the subjects of the entire empire. The regional princes/barons/etc. still exercised executive supremacy there. Just because a German king was HRE in no way says that the HRE was thus a German nation. Otherwise, we'd have to say the German states were ruled by Spain when Charles V was HRE. Silly!

And to say the Germans weren't unified very long and should be ditched is discounting lots of other civs --

Which was exactly my point.

I should have expected as much from a Russian. (Godunov the phony Tsar)

Hey! Low blow! Hehe. Acutally, I'm more German than anything else. And in terms of historical fact, Boris was very much a legitimate ruler and was a fairly benevolent monarch. He's just been sullied by the legends (which are untrue).

Cheers.

[Alex]

United States of America out of Civ3? Are you nuts? The game is made by americans, and is expected to sell millions of copies to americans. If I made a Civ game, I would certainly include a "Brazilian" civilization, even though I know that we cannot talk properly about Brazil being a "civilization". So I don't see why USA should not be in the game.

Cleopatra living in the 1950s? Roman Ceasars being driven to Broadway in cars?

Babylonians speaking English?... 'Koba is right, it is just a game.

By the way, why did I post on this thread?

[Mars]

USA should definitely be in

[Mankind]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

If you want to get rid of unimportant civs, I'd vote for the Iroquois first. And then the Zulus.

NO! I alwys like to see te face of zulu leader when i'am taking his another city .........just i like them ....like to destroy

[Mankind]

Hey Poland was big civ longer than te U.S .... long time ago ...


OK what do you think???? again Mankind whit his polish crap!!!!!!! ?

anyway i just remembered its time2do my homework

[Melios]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Another good point. Yeah, why are the Germans ok if Germany didn't even become a country until 1870s? By the logic of this thread, they only civs that should be in the game would be Sumeria and Egypt. Now there would be an exciting game!!!

There is such a game.

It's called Age of Empires.

[Odin]

I'm totally SICK of Europeans calling the US a part of the English civ! The modern American culture is far different than English culture. We are much more "Capitalist" than Europe. (has anyone heard of Sweden's rediculously high taxes.) Americans are actually a civ made from the mix of many other cultures. For example; I am 0.75 Norwegian and 0.25 German.

[Gramphos]

America is probably as old as all other land mass, And I don't see a reason to cut it out from the map. What would you place there instead?

Regarding the American civilization I think it is wrong. It somehow fits mush better into Colonization then to Civilization, but it was added to Civ I to make that game sell in the US.

[Nemo]

It's not how long a civ has been around, it is the impact and influence that they left while they were/are around. without the US, then i guess you'd have to remove democracy and capitalism from the game, too.

[jsw363]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Sorry to burst your bubble, my friend, but this in no way indicative of Germany's status as a unified nation-state. Given the way royal titles worked, this is akin to me being named King of the Midwest. Yes, there is a region called the Midwest, but it is not a nation-state or a singular political entity. It's just a region. There was no concept of there being a unified German nation until 1871. That's why they call it the unification of Germany, not the reunification of Germany.

I think that the US should be included. The US has developed a distinct culture and presence in the world. While recent, American contributions to all aspects of modern life are impressive by any standard.

On the German question, I think that German culture extends beyond the borders of modern Germany. Many notable Germans, such as Frederick the Great, preceed the unification of Germany, and still others were of German Ancestry, but of Austrian citizenship, like Freud. The Holy Roman Empire is an important part of German history and should be considered part of the German civ.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Nemo
without the US, then i guess you'd have to remove democracy and capitalism from the game, too.

US invented them did they?

[Sun Zi 36]

Originally posted by Odin
I'm totally SICK of Europeans calling the US a part of the English civ! The modern American culture is far different than English culture. We are much more "Capitalist" than Europe. (has anyone heard of Sweden's rediculously high taxes.)

Do not confuse English culture with European culture. England is more "Capitalist" than continental Europe. Look at how Tony Blair is following the Americans like a dog after 9/11 and you'll see their common interests/ cultural affilations.

Originally posted by Odin
Americans are actually a civ made from the mix of many other cultures. For example; I am 0.75 Norwegian and 0.25 German.

Then u are confusing nation and culture. Many minority groups in America (unlike u) does not identify with the majority white Anglo-Saxons. They do not see themselves as Americans even though they live in the country.

America cannot be a civ exactly cos it consists of people from completely different cultures. AND those cultures have not fused enough to become a unique culture.

For those who say Americans should be included bcos they are going to sell it in America, that is Firaxis' reason, not your reason. That reason has got nothing to do with us.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Sun Zi 36

Then u are confusing nation and culture. Many minority groups in America (unlike u) does not identify with the majority white Anglo-Saxons. They do not see themselves as Americans even though they live in the country.

I think many many more people who live in America consider themselves American than those who live in France consider themselves French or who live in Germany consider themselves German. This is because when foreigners from any land come to the U.S. and become citizens, they know their being American does not rely on a specific ethnic background. There is no American ethnicity. However, I could move to France and spend my whole life there, and would never consider myself or be considered French, because I am not ethnically so.

America cannot be a civ exactly cos it consists of people from completely different cultures. AND those cultures have not fused enough to become a unique culture.

You are confusing civilization with cultural hegemony. By the logic of what you just said, Rome would not qualify as a civilization because it was made up of millions of different cultures that spanned the Mediterranean. Most of those people didn't consider themselves Romans, and in fact viewed themselves as subjugates of the Empire.

And America is indeed a unique culture. There has never been a melting pot like this before. And if you doubt the impact of American culture, just walk down a street in Paris/London/Berlin/Rome/Istanbul/Beijing/Tokyo and look for the McDonald's sign.

[Nemo]

Originally posted by Big Crunch




US invented them did they?

heh, we do have Al GOre who invented the internet!
j/k

actually i was aiming at them being newer governements and ways of equidy (sp?) just as the US was a newer country. but i guess that is why they are only allowed later in the game, but they are nevertheless still in the game.

while the US was not the inventer of democracy by any means, we did successfully implement the theory, and have pushed for its expansion of it. without the US and its democracy the world could hypothetically be communist now for all we know. (just a what if...not saying i believe or disbelieve it)

aside: for all intense and purposes, i consider the US to be a republic, not a pure democracy