America isn't old enough to be in Civ3

[Fresno]

Originally posted by Oligarf


We are not arguing about whether America is civilized or not, OK, don't take the options of the poll that serious. This argument about Indians came up as someone tried to argue that America was more civilized than Europe, it wasn't an argument to leave America out, there have been others for that point.

Still could someone explain we why a nation we can't imagine to have had chariots or whatsoever is put in the game this way. In a SCHISM act alright, but this way round, it's just nonsense.

Absolutely.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Admiral Stukov
Nuclear Weapons are weapons of politics, not war.

If the heartland of any nuclear power were invaded, they would be used.

[Fresno]

Let's just see what India and Pakistan are going to do... Although I don't think they ever would be so stupid they would use them.

[Oligarf]

Ok here's my plan to give this thread a second chance, quit critizing America, just give intelligent arguments on the subject: America in or out. Or else leave this place.

[Sünert]

Originally posted by Oligarf
Ok here's my plan to give this thread a second chance, quit critizing America, just give intelligent arguments on the subject: America in or out. Or else leave this place.

We probaly should first lay down criterias.

Impact on worldpolitics:
in

age:
out

cultural diversity:
in

So 2:1, America is in.

PS.
Reading all this america is best/ is not crap,
should I kill myself because I'm a german ?

[Fresno]

Age is a valid reason, so that's the argument why I'll stay at this thread.

[Oligarf]

Out:
They are nothing more than European colonist.

Out:
I doubt if you can talk about cultural diversity, I doubt if you can still talk about an American culture, that is so distinct that it is an argument to let them in.

2-3
OUT after the second half

[Fresno]

Out: too young
In: Superpower
Out: Just a colony

Cultural diversity doesn't count, that's nothing but different civs existing in one nation; I don't see how such a thing affects the value of the nation itself as an independent civ.

[muppet]

How do you play without America in the game?

Age: IN
-- It may be silly to imagine American swordsmen, at 4,000BC, but it is equally silly to imagine the French Manhattan Project in 1900AD, or German warriors at 4,000BC.

Colony Status: IN
--Britain was originally settled by colonists from civilized continental Europe as well.

Culture: IN
Super Bowl, World Series, US Supreme Court, MIT, Harvard.
-- Culture refers to the way of life, fundamental values etc. specific to a people and place. Unfair to say America has no equivalent to temples, ancient wonders or historic educational institutes, because modern culture is simply not the same as ancient culture. Religion is much more a way of ancient life than modern life. US common law stopped referring to British legal precedent a long time ago.

History: IN
True. It is short lived. But it is full of quality -cough-. What I mean to say is qualitative analysis is maybe more important than quantitative analysis. And America certainly has a "history" than can be qualitatively analyzed, even if there is less of it to analyze.

Gameplay: IN
Don't you think it would be less thrilling to play the modern era without an American civ? I would miss all the American cities during the modern era. The modern and industrial ages just wouldn't be the same if I never saw an American unit or America at war sometime.

[Dauphin]

Colony Status: IN
--Britain was originally settled by colonists from civilized continental Europe as well

The Angles, Saxons, and Jutes were no more civilised than the tribes already in the British isles.

Gameplay: IN
Don't you think it would be less thrilling to play the modern era without an American civ? I would miss all the American cities during the modern era. The modern and industrial ages just wouldn't be the same if I never saw an American unit or America at war sometime.

That is where the Schism idea comes in!

[Admiral Stukov]

Originally posted by Fresno
Stukov, your last post made clear you are simply not willing to understand what I'm saying. Fine with me, but don't expect me to take your posts too seriously from now on.

The last ditch forum tactic of a debate... bail out while putting words in your opponents mouths to justify the retreat.

Anyways... about Nuclear Weapons. Both the Soviets and the Americans knew and believed that a nuclear holocaust would eventually destroy civilization. Nuclear Weapons were used as a standoff tool... as a weapon to say "If you attack me, you get nuked". Of course, both countries knew that if they were attacked, they would counter with regular military.

The governments of the world may not be perfect, but they certainly know better than to destroy civilization. This is the same as Pakistan and India... it's seriously doubtful they are going to use nuclear weapons... both countries understand what the aftermath will bring.

American technological advancement, as well as the economic revival of parts of European, helped ensure that the red banner would never stretch past East Germany (Unless you count Cuba, lol). Even the Nuclear Standoff is justified... if there were no nukes, then its quite possible that WW3 (As in, another full scale war fought NOT with nuclear weaponry) would have happened during the periods of aggression between the two superpowers. The United States supplied England and France with nuclear weapons so that strikes/counterstrikes on Russia could be made more quickly. Of course, then came the Nuclear Submarine...



Now, about America-

IN:
Modern Superpower
Modern Cultural Influences*
Worldwide Economic Dominance
Achieved Important Scientific Goals

OUT:
Um... well... I can't really say colony since Civilizations like Japan and England were colonies.


*-Now, there was, and still is, a debate on American culture. Right now, if you like the Simpsons, wear Blue Jeans, communicate on the internet, like the Whopper, or have watched a Hollywood movie, you've just experienced part of the American culture. This is because America's culture is different than others... its more modern focused. To say America has no culture is incorrect... its mostly a blend of other cultures, as well as our unique modern one. There is no denial to that.

Simply because a country is ethnically diverse doesn't mean it has no culture... look at Russia and India. Hell, those two nations would make MUCH better allies than, say, England, France, or Israel, simply because America/Russia/India have ALOT in common in terms of ethnic diversity, mideast problems, ect.

[muppet]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin

Colony Status: IN
--Britain was originally settled by colonists from civilized continental Europe as well

The Angles, Saxons, and Jutes were no more civilised than the tribes already in the British isles.

Gameplay: IN
Don't you think it would be less thrilling to play the modern era without an American civ? I would miss all the American cities during the modern era. The modern and industrial ages just wouldn't be the same if I never saw an American unit or America at war sometime.

That is where the Schism idea comes in!

I don't understand. Is it a prerequisite that a colony must displace an equally or more advanced civilization in order to later qualify to become a culturally distinct political entity.

Application of the Schism concept sounds great! Can someone provide that dates for when Britain, France, Germany, and Russia became a political or culturally distinct body?

1. The game might be a little boring before research of the immaculate conception.

2. The game might be over before any of the American or European civs enter the game.

[Sünert]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by muppet


I don't understand. Is it a prerequisite that a colony must displace an equally or more advanced civilization in order to later qualify to become a culturally distinct political entity.

Application of the Schism concept sounds great! Can someone provide that dates for when Britain, France, Germany, and Russia became a political or culturally distinct body?
[Quote]

France and Germany shortly after Karl the great has dieed, would be around 800 ad, Britain mhm I would go after the unification of england, that would be IIRC around the same time, Russia mhm don't have an idea memory is sektchy.

1. The game might be a little boring before research of the immaculate conception.

[Language breakdown]
Sorry What ?

2. The game might be over before any of the American or European civs enter the game.

Mhm don't think so, prob is with civ there is no tech backlash when a civ gets nearly eradicated ( there goes the middleages ) and new civs doesn't come to live or break free from others ( there goes the independence war ) beside it is only a game, and it all depends what do you take as improtant, age, impact,...

[Dauphin]

Of course, both countries knew that if they were attacked, they would counter with regular military.

If Russian troops were bearing down on Paris and London you think that the Brits and French would not respond with nukes? Of course they would.

[Sünert]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin


If Russian troops were bearing down on Paris and London you think that the Brits and French would not respond with nukes? Of course they would.

*jingo mode on*
Impossible scenario, you forget the germany army
*jingo mode off*