America isn't old enough to be in Civ3

[SerapisIV]

Re: Krazyhorse was dead on in the first page...

Originally posted by Your.Master
The war of independence did not change the fact that Americans are essentially English-speaking people with English ideals. Sure, there are subtle differences, but not civ-breaking.

Damn, my Polish godfather and Italian godmother wouldn't like that. Throw in my Irish heritage, and you have quite a few nationalities in the US who aren't too pleased about being told they have English ideals. My Armenian roommate wouldn't be too peachy either. How about my thermo prof who's father was a Japanese-American trooper in WWII in Italy? Not too much English ideals there.

[Rosacrux]

Come on people, get off that horse. No, the american civilization (well... whatever you can call "civilization" those colonial savages have come up with ) is not an english civilization. Sure, it's roots are back into the whol anglo-saxon tradition, but it has surpassed its roots nowadays.

Of course USA is not the ideal "melting pot" everybody there was so proud about a few decades ago. More and more ethnic groups (greatest of them being the latinos-hispanic) are not "melting into the pot". That could cause loads of trouble in the coming years, but it might just be sings of times and it could change back to the "normal".

The standing hegemony of the WASP ideals is not really powerfull or omnipresent anymore, but I wouldn't discard it that easy.

Fact is, USA has a distinct (something like) Civilization. As previously mentioned, Blues, McDonalds, gas-eating "cars", crappy overrated chicks, rednecks, the Big Blue, Baseball, piss-for-beer (read: Bud), American "Footbal", (WWF-style) Wrestling, Hollywood, Britney Spears - those are all parts of what we call "American Civilization".

Denouncing that is simply stupid. And there ain't no civil-o-meter around to measure wether their civ is "good" or "bad" or whatever... so, let's just stick with them and see what happens

[Sarxis]

I don't mean to stoop, but:

well, I almost posted some things here I would have been ashamed of later, so I won't.

Let us live in dandelion peace and in marshmellow dreams!

[FrostyBoy]

There are far too many posts for me to read, but I want to just post my opinion on this debate.

The answer is quite simple; it is based on how you want to make the game Civilization.

If you want it to be realistic, then you would have to put in the first 16 civilizations that first existed, no matter who they are.

If it's not that way, it's the civ's who made the most impact, but trying to keep some variety (the reason for Iroquoi and Zulu's).


Personally, and I think a better thing to do, is to do what Civ is about; "recreating civilization", not starting off with a current one. So in the ideal Civilization game, you start off with a bunch of unknowns, name them what you want, and as time moves on, other civs are created and your civ name could change due to wars and so forth. This would be a more realistic way and (I think) better way to make a civilization game.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

The Brits are still hailing the Last Charge of the Light Brigade as a victory

Where did you get that from????

I got 2 sources for you.
1> My friend from England
2>Blood, Tears, and Folly, a book on WW2 by Len Deighton, a british author.

Most Brits probably don't know what, when or where the charge was.

And who was saying that Americans did not know about their history (might be in this thread or another)

If you want examples of British views on victory then the Falklands

People say that only America goes into places like the Middle East and messes things up. Well heres a European country going to Argentina and messing things up.

In a nutshell, your statement is wholly false.

In a nutshell, my statement is more than just those points

quote:
America has invented the suburb, another cultural thing

Riiiigggghhhtt.

You bet. Unlike in Europe where you put all the poor people around the outside the cities, in the US we put all poor people in the middle, and all the rich on the outside.

The UK hasn't had them ever, since its inception 300 years ago.

So you're saying that the UK has only existed for 300 years? If so, what gives them more worth in being in Civ3? The US has been around for almost 250 years. If you go further back than that, you can see a Viking, and Roman invasion, and Angle and Saxon invasions.

Were if not for the US the middle east might not whitness everyday slaughter, justice would be served and the whole place would be free to do what the local populations want, not what Exxon and their likes wish... And also, we wouldn't have experienced the Frankestein creations of USA - Saddamn Hussein etc.

And why is the US in the middle East? Because we care to protect the Jews from another holocaust. Unlike you Euros who can't see further than your nose, we feel responsible for the death of 6 million Jews. Now, maybe your country has other responsibilities, but we try to keep history from repeating itself. Sure, we've made mistakes with Saddam Husseing, but who was their to back us up the whole way during the Cold War? NATO. and NATO is the whole of Western Europe. And besides, Europe doesn't deal with Saddam Husseing. They'd rather forgive and forget and deal arms to him.

they were just the ones in the bottom of the social/economical/mental barel here and we had to get rid of them

And people like these have worked hard and made America something your bourgeois Europe can only wish to have.

Money. We buy your crappy no-good products and fill your pockets with money. Take away from USA the international commerce and you end up with a nation bankrupt.

If its crappy, so why do you buy it? Take away the USA from the international commerce and you end up with a whole CONTINENT bankrupt.

Brains. We give you our best brains and you use them to make more crappy products, sell them to us and thous make more money.

And why do they leave? You don;t just give them to us. They leave on their own will. They leave because they know that (a) its extremely hard to become rich in Europe (high taxes) and (b)a lot of those brains are poor people who know that if they work hard in the US, they can succeed because people arnt as stuck up.

Air space, harbours, airports, bases etc. for your mighty US Armed Forces... without us, your force can't even supply toilet paper to whipe your sailors butts

Without US, you wouldn't know how to fly.

Tradition and heritage. Most americans are proud to call themselves "afro-american" "Italian" (plain) "Greek-American" "I-don't-know-what-American" etc. You try to get some roots, because you don't have any in your own country.

Unlike the homogeneous Europe, people in America come from many different backrounds. Is it wrong to call yourself African-American? or Greek-American? Europeans dont understand what the essence of being American is. This huge melting pot of different cultures makes us Americans. People understand, that no matter who you are, we are all in this together. The reason for calling yourself African-American or Greek-American is so you can identify yourself with the many large and different cultural groups in America today. Why do French arabs call themselves Arabs? Or British Pakitanis call themselves Pakistani? Its the same everywhere, except you havn't opened your eyes. How can you critize another country if you don't even know your own?

The first democracy after the ancient world (not the Roman Republic, dear, the last standing democracy was that in the Greek city states that got overrun during the 2nd century BC by the Roman oligarchy - that is the meaning of a "Republic" in the Roman way, at least after the 4th century BC - oligarchy) was the United Kingdom.

So here you say that being democratic means that you have a king and where 2/3 of the country cannot vote, and here

What democracy are you talking about? USA is still an oligarchy - definitely not a democracy. In democracy at least most people go to vote (if not participating actively in the public affairs). In USA the voting percentage of the adult population is about 20% - and don't give me the crap "they have the right but they don't

you say that the USA is not a democracy where every US citizen has the right to vote. In the UK theres something called the House of Lords. These guys are there because of birthright. Sure, they don't have much power, but just having this useless wing of politics is crazy.

This latest election, 49% of the country voted.

And the real power is not in the hands of the government - your president is merely a puppet, a front man to play a role on a large scale. An actor, so to say. Real power resides in the hands of the industrial/military complex, in the big corporations and in the secret services officials.

Are you some sort of paranoid ultra right wing person? Granted, with GWB, hes just a front man (hes too stupid to lead) The army does not have any power in the US government. they do not make foreign policy. Big corporations also do not have as much influence as you think. And you were the one saying that were ignorant? Look at yourself.

But USA is not a democracy, not even now... it's an oligarchic republic.

Its called a Representational Republic. Where representatives represent the people. In the UK, its a Constitutional Monarchy. The US system is way more democratic than the UK system.

The war of independence did not change the fact that Americans are essentially English-speaking people with English ideals. Sure, there are subtle differences, but not civ-breaking.

Another ignorant Euro

[Akaoz]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia

People say that only America goes into places like the Middle East and messes things up. Well heres a European country going to Argentina and messing things up.

They intervined in the Falklands. The Falklands are a British prtotectorat i think.

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia

Without US, you wouldn't know how to fly.

Heh...

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia


Unlike the homogeneous Europe, people in America come from many different backrounds. Is it wrong to call yourself African-American? or Greek-American? Europeans dont understand what the essence of being American is. This huge melting pot of different cultures makes us Americans. People understand, that no matter who you are, we are all in this together. The reason for calling yourself African-American or Greek-American is so you can identify yourself with the many large and different cultural groups in America today. Why do French arabs call themselves Arabs? Or British Pakitanis call themselves Pakistani? Its the same everywhere, except you havn't opened your eyes. How can you critize another country if you don't even know your own?

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia


Its called a Representational Republic. Where representatives represent the people. In the UK, its a Constitutional Monarchy. The US system is way more democratic than the UK system.

Do you know what an oligarchi is?

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia


Another ignorant Euro

Heh, nuff said.

-Alech

[Sir Hawkeye]

In response to the point "America can't be a civ because it came from England and Europe" I shall do some math.

America = England + Continental Europe + Small influence form many cultures.

England = Norman + Saxon + Welsh

Norman = French + Scandinavian
Saxon = Germanic + Roman

French = Germanic + Rome
Scandinavian = Germanic + Lapp

Rome = Etruscan + Hellenistic
Hellenistic = Greek + Persian + Egyptian

Greek = Cretian + Dorian

Note: Some of this may not be completely correct, as I do not have a history book, but the point still stands.

So, Essentially, only those civilizations which sprang wholecloth from hunter-gatherer tribes can be counted?

[Stuie]

This just in:

IT'S A ****IN' GAME, PEOPLE.

It does not matter what sides are included, they could be named after different colors and have amorphous blobs as their leaders. But that wouldn't be as much fun, would it?

In the end, if you don't like one of the Civs included, edit them out and stick in something more to your liking. All this bravado does nothing but exacerbate idiocy.


(Note to self: Avoid stupid "Civ X should not be in the game" threads)

[TCO]

Hey we invented the civ game ffer crying out loud!!! We rock!!! USA! USA!

'Nuf said...

[Rosacrux]

Yo GP, I am with you! And Sid is an USO too, so you are welcome in the game

Lawrence: Grow up, buy a clue (or two if you are at it) read, get a life... whatever, just don't reply rabbish to a very thoughtfull, inteligent and playfull post


Sir Hawkeye Lovely, just lovely... introduce me to your history teacher, I'll be quite enthusiastic about spanking his/hers butt really hard... Ohmnigosh, would you join Lawrence in buying a clue, please?

[August Borms]

Originally posted by Rosacrux
Lawrence: Grow up, buy a clue (or two if you are at it) read, get a life... whatever, just don't reply rabbish to a very thoughtfull, inteligent and playfull post

I think he's just trolling

[Fresno]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
And why is the US in the middle East? Because we care to protect the Jews from another holocaust. Unlike you Euros who can't see further than your nose, we feel responsible for the death of 6 million Jews. Now, maybe your country has other responsibilities, but we try to keep history from repeating itself. Sure, we've made mistakes with Saddam Husseing, but who was their to back us up the whole way during the Cold War? NATO. and NATO is the whole of Western Europe. And besides, Europe doesn't deal with Saddam Husseing. They'd rather forgive and forget and deal arms to him.

You say we Europeans don't feel responsible for the holocaust? This is a rough insult! The big difference between the USA and Europe is we did learn from what happened, i.e., we also feel responsible for those oppressed Palestinians. And when it comes to dealing arms, believe me, many wars in Africa can only continue because of American weapons.

If you want to look politically interesting, fine, but don't accuse Europe of nazi sympathies. We also don't say all Americans are KKK.

[Panzer]

As far as I am concerned the Americans are more then welcome in Civ3. After all, Americans, French, English, Zulus etc., they will eventually bow before the mighty Istharian Empire led by me!

What I mean to say is that I'm gonna make my own custom Civ, so the Americans can be in the game as far as I am concerned. The more Civs I get to crush, the merrier.

[Dauphin]

So you're saying that the UK has only existed for 300 years?

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was formed in 1801. The United Kingdom of England and Scotland was formed in 1707. The "United Kingdom" of England was formed (embryonically) in the 9th century.

[FrostyBoy]

I just gave you the damn answer, so why are ppl continuing the debate?