America isn't old enough to be in Civ3

[Fresno]

Big Crunch:

If I were saved by a lifeguard I would not resent the act of saving my life. I would be less than hospitable to him if every day, and at every opportunity he said "I saved your sorry ass that time you fell overboard".

Bottom line - I don't hear the Russians on this board shouting about how they destroyed Nazism.

Exactly. Sometimes I wonder what makes some Americans think they liberated us alone.

[TCO]

Understood...but would you deny the fact of what the lifeguard did?

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by GP
Understood...but would you deny the fact of what the lifeguard did?

No-one denies the impact the US had in WW2.

What is questioned is the US belief that they alone saved Europe. Which is blatantly not true.

Is a doctor alone in the operating room? Did the doctor provide all the blood for the transfusion? Did the doctor administer first aid at the critical moment?

To listen to the US take on WW2 you would have thought so.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Big Crunch


No-one denies the impact the US had in WW2.

What is questioned is the US belief that they alone saved Europe. Which is blatantly not true.

Is a doctor alone in the operating room? Did the doctor provide all the blood for the transfusion? Did the doctor administer first aid at the critical moment?

To listen to the US take on WW2 you would have thought so.

Only some people in the U.S. act as though the States alone won World War II; but then given the superb propaganda medium of the Hollywood film industry, it's hardly surprising. As someone else noted, too, the teaching of history in some U.S. schools is reduced to a tableau of famous American (formerly all white, all male) personages, most reduced to some absurdly moral plaster sainthood. I remain forever grateful to the people of Stalingrad and Leningrad, and the nameless faceless men and women of the Eastern Front who gave their lives; and also, to the millions of Chinese, combatants and non-combatants, who ensured that a large part of the Japanese Army was tied down in mainland China, unable to assist in the battles for Port Moresby, the Kokoda Trail and Milne Bay. That said, it does not deny the fact that without the industrial might of the U.S.A., and its distance from the main theatres of war, and all those American men and women who gave their lives, then Philip K. ****'s 'The Man in the High Castle' might not be a work of science fiction....

[N. Machiavelli]

Good grief

*Sigh*

I cannot believe that this thread is still going on. Bigotry on both sides has deluded this argument to the same drivel that pollutes every other board at some point. I'm not going to argue for or against the 'credability' of the United States o America, everyne has their own bias, and none will be persuaded...ever. So why continue to hammer back and forth at one another when it doesn't actually 'solve' a damn thing? The arguments going on here has nothing to do with the topic: "Is America old enough to be in Civ3?". No where in that sentence does it ask "Is America good or bad?", "Is the United States an evil power out to get the rest of the world?", or "Isn't America the greatest thing since sliced bread?". It doesn't matter who thinks what, that is not what this thread is about, nor is it what this bulleten board is about.

The United States didn't win WWI, II, or single-handedly or save the world, everyone knows that, even Americans. Stating otherwise is ingorance: you lump together 100+ million people and their ideals because of what you hear from:

a) The Media.
b) A few loudmouth kids.

None of this has any place on this board since none of these real-world opinions are ever reflected inside the game. Grow up.

As for the actual topic, is America old enough to be in Civ3. First let's ask this question; how old is old enough? 50 years? 100 years? 500 years? 1000? 10000? None of this Civs currently in the game were around back in 4000 B.C., when the game begins (except mabye Egypt and Babylon, but that simply means there were people in that area of the world). So where is the cut-off date? Where does 'America' begin? What is 'America' in this context? Doe 'America' reflect the early settlers that left Europe because of a different culture to begin with? Does it begin at 1781? When?

Few have actually asked when American culture began. 'American' culture started as soon as the first colonists landed; from then on, they were forced to live differently and think differently than the people they had just left. Isn't that the begining of a new culture? If so, then 'America' started back in the 1500's. Is 500 years old enough for Civ3?

People cannot seem to remember that in the game, the nation is called 'America' and not the United States. The United States is only 225 years old, 'America' is twice that. It's like stating that while the nation of 'Germany' is little over e century and a half old, but 'German' culture are far older. It's the same with France, China, Russia, etc, The Russia of today is not the same as the Soviet Union of 15 years ago, but that doesn't mean that Russian culture is only a decade and a half old.

So is the United States old enough to be Civ3? Probably not. But is 'America'? Yes.


P.S. If you are really that obsessed about it, take them out using the editor and insert a new civ. It's really not that hard. I created the Celts from the slot that the Persians had using my own graphics and 15 minutes of work. I had nothing against the Persians, but I wanted the Celts in.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Big Crunch


No-one denies the impact the US had in WW2.

What is questioned is the US belief that they alone saved Europe. Which is blatantly not true.

Is a doctor alone in the operating room? Did the doctor provide all the blood for the transfusion? Did the doctor administer first aid at the critical moment?

To listen to the US take on WW2 you would have thought so.

JEEZ, don't be such a sap. Who said we alone won the war? Got any more strawmen to immolate? If you really feel this hurt about what somebody said...I'll just have to let you fester.

But anyway...the lifeguard is pissed off that you're trying to throw him out of the dinner party (Civ3)...when he created the dinner party!!

[Fresno]

Re: Good grief

Originally posted by N. Machiavelli
The arguments going on here has nothing to do with the topic: "Is America old enough to be in Civ3?". No where in that sentence does it ask "Is America good or bad?", "Is the United States an evil power out to get the rest of the world?", or "Isn't America the greatest thing since sliced bread?". It doesn't matter who thinks what, that is not what this thread is about, nor is it what this bulleten board is about.

I know this thread isn't supposed to be about America's flaws. I said so several times. But when I read a one-sided, nationalist view on history, I just want to reply. Powerful nations always tend to become self-complacent, which in my opinion is a bad thing.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by GP
JEEZ, don't be such a sap. Who said we alone won the war? Got any more strawmen to immolate? If you really feel this hurt about what somebody said...I'll just have to let you fester.

Ok I said US when I meant Hollywood.

It is not the "Hollywood" self-complacent attitutude that annoys me, but the belittling or misrepresentatin of others.

[Roadkill Quiche]

The United States is an absolutely wonderful country with many things going for it -- unfortunately, a rich culture is not among them. This was brought home to me a few years ago. While in Italy (which unquestionably has a culture) I met some Brits with passes for flight to any city here. Neither had been, I was asked where to go.

My answer -- Las Vegas. With its cheese, its conspicuous consumption, its tackiness, its faux-derivative excess, its violence to the environment (a city of a million in the middle of the desert???), it represents all that is distinct about American "culture" and which separates it from any other culture on the planet. Plus it's not all that far from the Grand Canyon -- which is truly worth crossing an ocean to see.

[Oligarf]

The reason the USA shouldn't have been included is because they were a colony once. It is not about how old a nation is. All civs that emerged on their own should be in, Romans, Greeks and so on. The Americans had a very great deal of help, can't deny that. America is nothing more than part of a CIV civilization on another continent split off, something very much different of a civ built up from scratch. So far at least should the realism in the game reach.

[Oligarf]

Makes me realize that Carthage shouldn't be in either by example as being a colony of Phoenicia (or whatever way that may be spelled). Angel-Saxon would therefore be probably a better way to name the English. Celts are in already, Franks and Goths could be too.

[Ted Striker]

I always hear all this, "USA has no culture" crap yet nobody ever defines exactly what that is.

Does it mean having a bunch of folk dancers in ethnic costumes dancing about? Eating cheese and wine while listening to classical music?

USA has a rich culture. Rock n' roll, r&b music, sports --> baseball, basketball, football. Blue jeans, black music, a fitness lifestyle, all that. All of these things are distinctively American. Nothing beats good ole home American cooking also. Hit me up with some fried chicken, green beans, and mash potatoes and gravy. That's what I'm talking about.

Some will downplay the role of culture simply because of the widespread commercialization of things. But look beyond that and there is a culture as diverse and rich as any place on earth.

[Fresno]

I always hear all this, "USA has no culture" crap yet nobody ever defines exactly what that is.

I wonder what you are referring to. During the last three days nobody mentioned the aspect of culture on this thread.

I guess you reacted before reading the previous posts... again.

[Ted Striker]

Brain Trust,

That's a cute, although quite ineffective, little tactic you just tried. Pulling things out of our arse are we?

Did it ever occur to you that I haven't read the thread FOR THE LAST 3 DAYS?

Roadkill's post SPECIFICALLY talks about culture. That's the one I was talking about.

DUH!

[Dauphin]

How long did it take you to find a post refering to culture in that lot?