America isn't old enough to be in Civ3

[Ironikinit]

Originally posted by Oligarf
...but some of the things happening in the US, make me question if everything that happens in the US are the right things and are meant by it's Founding Fathers.

Don't buy into the whole founding fathers hype too much. We had to fight a civil war to fix one of their mistakes, after all.

Serb, I think that I was the one who said that both world wars were European in origin. It's probably an oversimplification, like saying that slavery was the cause of the American civil war.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Fresno
Another point: the population.

Russia: 148 million
Germany: 81 million
England: 58 million
France: 57 million
Italy: 57 million
Spain: 38 million
Netherlands: 15 million
Belgium: 10 million
Portugal: 10 million

Per the CIA.

Russia: 146 million
Germany : 83 million

Total EU at present: 378 million

Relatively speaking, the Russian's population is no more of a problem than Germany's is presently. At the moment Germany makes up 22% of the EU population. Add in Russia and it (Russia) would makes up 28% of the population. Add in the other prospectives, such as Czech Republic Hungary etc and it is reduced to about 23% - in other words as relatively strong as Germany is now.

[LarryBernard]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
I have ancesotors going back to 2b.c. from Germany

That would be after 100-odd generations, therefore so do a lot of people.

In fact, anyone with British anscetry probably does to...

Ergo thats pointless **PLONK**

it can count itself as one of the most influencial nations to have ever existed.

At present, but in 100 or 1000 years time will it be seen as such. Even after 2000 years the Roman Empire is still remembered as a great empire, after 100 years the British Empire has similar accolades, but the Spanish are largely ignored despite being the world power for longer than the US has currently.

The Spanish were only a world power During the Hapsburg period, and the burned out during 3 reigns to becoming a weakened world power.

[Dauphin]

Spain can be considered a world power from at least 1492 (when the Moors were finally pushed out of Spain) to at least1588 (the defeat of the Great Armada), the US from the 1900s to 2002.

A conservative estimate places Spain as being the world power as long as the US.

I can't find my original post but I think you must have added this:

In fact, anyone with British anscetry probably does to...

Ergo thats pointless **PLONK**

You do realise the bolds were reference quotes? My point was that the previous point was pointless.

[Dauphin]

Found the original post, jeez, I wrote that back in September.

Yeah, anyway the first comment was a rebuttal to a point (in bold) that someone else made.

[Oligarf]

Originally posted by Ironikinit
Don't buy into the whole founding fathers hype too much. We had to fight a civil war to fix one of their mistakes, after all.

OK, I don't know that much about it to say you are wrong, but another point is that the first presidents of the US were mainly atheists. I don't try to say with this that religion is wrong, but sometimes religion has to much influence in American politics. I even heard that some christians, if you may still call them that way of course, in the US could be could fundamentalists. Not that nice an idea I think.

(and yes, I don't deny that the Netherlands have some idiots walking around as well)

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
Per the CIA.

Russia: 146 million
Germany : 83 million

Total EU at present: 378 million

Relatively speaking, the Russian's population is no more of a problem than Germany's is presently. At the moment Germany makes up 22% of the EU population. Add in Russia and it (Russia) would makes up 28% of the population. Add in the other prospectives, such as Czech Republic Hungary etc and it is reduced to about 23% - in other words as relatively strong as Germany is now.

If that is the case it doesn't seem to me that unreasonable, but Russia would be the only real big country, although France and the United Kingdom are a bit smaller than Germany it's a whole lot other proportion when Russia is added. There should happen some things out there before I would consider to let them join the EU.

[Ironikinit]

Well, there's been some talk that Thomas Jefferson was an atheist (and that talk happened when he was alive, too), but calling the US founders atheists is a bit of a stretch.

Like a lot of educated people of the period, some of them could be called deists. Deism hinges IIRC upon the principle that there is a creator, but not an interventionist god.

Washington, for example, was a soldier, and like many soldiers was a believer. He made references to a divine providence lots of times.

The US is a relatively religious country today, and believers do sometimes attempt to force their views upon others. Of course, to some Christians efforts by the American Civil Liberties Union to keep prayer out of school and religious images off public property seem like having their beliefs denied. Some fundamentalists believe that the US is powerful because of the intervention of god.

IMO, the founders were wise to make religious freedom the law of the land, and doubly wise to separate church and state.

[Fresno]

Sagacious Dolphin:

Relatively speaking, the Russian's population is no more of a problem than Germany's is presently. At the moment Germany makes up 22% of the EU population. Add in Russia and it (Russia) would makes up 28% of the population. Add in the other prospectives, such as Czech Republic Hungary etc and it is reduced to about 23% - in other words as relatively strong as Germany is now.

See it like this: the Russian population is bigger as the population of Germany and France together. This would make them VERY powerful, even if the Eastern European countries you mentioned would be added.

And further, don't forget they still have huge political and economical problems, which should be solved before they could be added anyway.

[Oligarf]

"Allah, bless America!"

[Oligarf]

Originally posted by Fresno
See it like this: the Russian population is bigger as the population of Germany and France together. This would make them VERY powerful, even if the Eastern European countries you mentioned would be added.

And further, don't forget they still have huge political and economical problems, which should be solved before they could be added anyway.

Isn't that the same as I already said?

[Fresno]

Maybe. You should be glad someone agrees with you.

[Dauphin]

And further, don't forget they still have huge political and economical problems, which should be solved before they could be added anyway

I was talking under the assumption that they would be ready for EU membership (i.e resolved economic/political difficulties). I wouldn't forsee that for 20-30 yrs anyway.

With regards outnumbering Germany and France combined, what is the problem? If you apply the one person, one vote principal, why should it matter where that vote is coming from.

In the UK, England makes up 75% of the population. Its not a problem.

[Worthingtons]

America, England, France, and Germany are nations, not civilizations

WOT!?!?!?!
England Controlled 1/4 of the Globe I'll have you know!! Our Empire is perhaps the greatest Empire in HISTORY!!, Yes these days we are just a mighty nation, but at one time we were a glorious formidable civilisation!!. We then decided to be kind and give the other places thier independance.


Interesting Poll this

[Cairo_East]

If all poltical, economic, and cultural developments of former English colonies are directly related to England, then it means that England is responsible for both the Irish boyband Westlife and the American boyband the Back Street Boys. Personally, I ache for England.

[Dauphin]

Colonies never can afford the real thing - hence it is fair to say that they are just poor copies of the original boy band - the Beatles.