CCCP's Workshop.

[Drogue]

I think it's logical to conclude that if soldiers want to fight less, and don't want to leave there comforable homes, then there will be unrest about any war. Besides, I'll have to find the actual phrase, but I think in the SMAC manual it explained all the penalties, and what they represent, and I thought it was a little broader in scope than just the soldiers.

[GeneralTacticus]

Sorry to rehash an old part of this discussion, but I felt this bit required a further response:

The Morale penalty is designed to show that the people have become accustomed to having material things, and, like Morgan, prize comfort so highly it has a detrimental effect on society.

No, the Morale penalty doesn't necessarily reflect a negative impact on society, it just means that soldiers will be a bit less enthusiastic about having to go off and fight away from their comfortable homes, and that less money is also likely to be spent on actually training them, as it's instead invested into industrial and economic development.

[GeneralTacticus]

When I was talking about getting more commerce via Wealth, I was referring to getting Econ values above +2, rather than the bonus to the commerce equation, but that is a good point also (for me ). Note that in addition to that, one gets 1 extra commerce at +# ECOn, as well as +1 energy per base square AND +1 energy per square, including the base square anyway, and double the base square and commerce bonuses at +4.

Now, to sum up my arguments that Wealth is capable of producing more tech than Knowledge (not all the time, but it is quite possible:

1) Without FM, it's the only way (before Eudaemonia) to get +2 ECON, which is an enormous boost to tech advancement.

2) With FM, it gives even more energy from base squares and commerce, especially in conjunction with a GA

3) 25% faster research (and it IS 25% - though that only helps your point) and extra efficiency may or may not produce faster tech advancement than a higher economy rating - it depends entirely on the distribution of population and infrastructure relative to the HQ. +1 efficieny increases the maximum distance for any energy production to occur at all by 33%, but if most of your energy is being produced near your HQ already, it is unlikely to be worth it.

EDIT:

As you pointed, the trade bonus from Wealth is equal to the research of one economic tech advance, meaning wealth is a good thing in a short term, while knowledge will help you understand Chiron's natural economics and therefore will make you gain more money.

Isn't that exactly what we're debating here: whether Wealth produces faster research than Knowledge?

[Pandemoniak]

*thanx for the precise formulas.

All that seem quite close to what I imagined, but i adds a couple of features to my arguments.
First, the base that cant be linked to other bases are ignored, so thats an enormous manque à gagner. It still depends on the configuration of the played faction, but I think a better energy dispatching, read a better efficency, could save energy instead of gaining more energy. Take it this way : when you're running out of eergy, try to save it instead of first trying to increase your energy output.

As you pointed, the trade bonus from Wealth is equal to the research of one economic tech advance, meaning wealth is a good thing in a short term, while knowledge will help you understand Chiron's natural economics and therefore will make you gain more money.

According to this formula :

Base's Energy Bonus =
(PAIRED BASE VALUE) x (BASE COMMERCE + 1) / (TOTAL COMMERCE + 1)

This is very unlikely to get more research with wealth than with knwoledge. For example, if you have a pure energy output of 100, 50/50 energy divided between research and EC, you still have a 20% cheaper research, while the general energy output should be 40% more with only a +1 in "base commerce" to get the same science rate. It means the paired base value must be exceptionnaly high.

For me, this only show wealth can be a good investment at a short term (ie: preparing to rushbuy a couple of SPs, an army, etc...), but in the long term, knowledge brings you more research, and therefore increaseyour tech level (read your base commerce) faster, and keeps your efficiency at a better level.

[GeneralTacticus]

Oh, and Eudaemonia is irrelevant to this discussion, as it comes so late in the game.

[Hercules]

Good debate.

[GeneralTacticus]

I didnt say that. It depend of the way you play SMAC. I prefer an industrial style than a commercial one, and my faction is always adapted to this. I'll make a save and show what Demo/Planned/Knowledge/Eudaimonia can do though.

It depends on the situation created by your playstyle. If you prefer to use Knowledge because when you play with your playstyle it works, that doesn't mean it will work here when we're using a whole heap of different ones.

Im not exactly sure of how the commerce income is determined, but IIRC, its the first base of your faction and the first base of each other faction, and their wealth determine the trade income. While a commercial bonus would improve this income for the bases linked (meaning for the same #bases that the opponent have), knowledge will improve efficiency (allowing you thus a higher rate of research with no penalties) and save energy and decrease the cost of research.

From the AC Strategy Guide Commerce Formula:

Commerce is computed base by base between factions with Treaties and PActs, as follows:

First, all bases for each faction are ranked from top to bottom by energy output.

Bases are paired off from top to bottom. If one faction has extra bases, they're ignored.

For each pair of bases, sum the combined economic (energy) output and divide by 8, rounding up.

Double this if the Global Trade Pact is in effect.

This result = PAIRED BASE VALUE

Now you can calculate the energy bonus from commerce for each individual base:

BASE COMMERCE = the sum of economic factors for your faction and this base:

Environmental Economics (+1)
Planetary Economics (+1)
Hive (-2)
Free Market (+2)
Eudaimonic (+2)
Industrial Economics (+1)
Sentient Econometrics (+1)
Morgan (+1)
Wealth (+1)
Plus any base-specific modifiers.

TOTAL COMMERCE = the sum of all economic technologies currently in the game.

Environmental Economics (+1)
Industrial Economics (+1)
Planetary Economics (+1)
Sentient Econometrics (+1)

Base's Energy Bonus =
(PAIRED BASE VALUE) x (BASE COMMERCE + 1) / (TOTAL COMMERCE + 1)

Divide the Base's Energy Bonus by 2 if there is only a treaty (but no Pact).

Add +1 to the Base's Energy Bonus if you are Planetary Governor.

Note that no commerce is allowed if sanctions are in effect against either faction.

As you can see, those bases which produce the most energy get the best commerce, and they are also the ones that can make best use of it. Unless your faction's energy production is spread out fairly evenly, the extra efficiency is unlikely to outweigh the extra commerce (and more even energy production, ironically, is more likely to come about under FM than Planned).

EDIT: whether FM produces more or less even energy production depends on how population is distributed, but population tends to be distributed more evenly than energy./EDIT

it is obvious that knwoledge favors science and wealth favor EC , I cant beleive you argue on that.

Knowledge favours research, but Wealth favours Energy, not Energy Credits. The extra money goes into research as well as ECs. It's no good having 20% cheaper techs if you're only producing half as much energy as you would be using Wealth (okay, so that's an exagerration, but you get the idea).

[Drogue]

Can we afford the Morale penalty with the Hive (probably) a short hop away? Knowledge is the way forward.

To Maniac: Maybe they do, but do they outnumber the people that don't want FM or Wealth. I think it may be possible to keep a Knowledge/Planned or Green system going, especially if we go to war with the Hive (which IMHO makes Wealth not a possibility)

[Earwicker]

Achieving GA with 20% psych but without specialists should be possible in a few years, once we have [list=1][*]lifted energy restrictions[*]tidall harnesses[*]boreholes[/list=1]

Before that, not many of our bases will GA without specialists, so Drogue's point is well-made. In the meantime, the industrial bonus of wealth is what makes it most appealing - combined with planned we have a great opportunity to expand our infrastructure, readying ourselves for the potential GA phase.

As for the social side, I always envisioned that the benefits of a golden age would benefit all strata of society (including the drones) so do not consider it rife with injustice. Wealth=prosperity. (ack, now I sound like a politician . . . )

[Maniac]

Pandemoniak, ok, Wealth might be a less good choice than Knowledge for the CCCP ideals, and a human player is able to survive against the AI without +2 Eco, but if you want any of your ideals become reality, you need to make compromises with Free-Marketeers who want +2 Economy under any circumstance. GA+Wealth seems the only method to do so.

[Drogue]

Ahhh... but is it better to have many specialists to get Golden Age with Wealth to +2 Econ, or is it better to have those specialists as librarians or workers with Knowledge and the +2 Res, +1 Eff? Personally, I would favour the latter.

[Kirov]

Pande, even if at very large empire (40+ bases) indeed Effic is the main factor, in our situation is far more better to have +2 Econ than +2 Res and +1 Effic.

Drogue, GA means Golden Age (+2 Growth, +1 Econ at this base). With GA we can have the same bonuses as FM, but Wealth is crucial in this plan.

[Pandemoniak]

Ga = golden age

[Drogue]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus


Like you said, it depends on the situation. However, if we go Planned, we would probably get far better research from Wealth + GA in our core bases than from Knowledge.

I haven't ever found that personally, as Pande said, a +1 Econ rating isn't worth much, its just when you get +2 that you get large bonuses. (BTW what's GA? )

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus

You obviously find far more aggressive AIs than I usually do. Most of the time in my games, most of the factions that get eliminated were done in by me.

Either that or you are a more aggressive player than Pande. I usually find most factions get eliminated by the Hive or the Believers, because i don't usually attack anyone until the mid-game.

[Pandemoniak]

Like you said, it depends on the situation

I didnt say that. It depend of the way you play SMAC. I prefer an industrial style than a commercial one, and my faction is always adapted to this. I'll make a save and show what Demo/Planned/Knowledge/Eudaimonia can do though.

It doesn't make it any less valuable in absolute terms, especially since the bases that can take the most advantage of it will be getting most of the commerce.

Im not exactly sure of how the commerce income is determined, but IIRC, its the first base of your faction and the first base of each other faction, and their wealth determine the trade income. While a commercial bonus would improve this income for the bases linked (meaning for the same #bases that the opponent have), knowledge will improve efficiency (allowing you thus a higher rate of research with no penalties) and save energy and decrease the cost of research. it is obvious that knwoledge favors science and wealth favor EC , I cant beleive you argue on that.

You obviously find far more aggressive AIs than I usually do. Most of the time in my games, most of the factions that get eliminated were done in by me.

Well, where do you think they get their weapons ? :nasty: And anyway, theres always a couple of factions whom you know you cant trade with.