CCCP's Workshop.

[GeneralTacticus]

You indeed dont need it, despite you can play with. I'm just pointing that if Wealth make a better Science rate than Knowledge, you faction is totally disproportionate. It can happen. But most of the time, the best science rate is at FM+Knowledge, except for huge factions, where its green+Knowledge.

Like you said, it depends on the situation. However, if we go Planned, we would probably get far better research from Wealth + GA in our core bases than from Knowledge.

About the commerce thing, when you have 40 bases more than the biggest opposite faction, its pointless to have a better commerce rate, since you dont have commerce at all.

It doesn't make it any less valuable in absolute terms, especially since the bases that can take the most advantage of it will be getting most of the commerce.

Moreover, the Hive and/or the Believer have a slight tendancy to destroy other factions, which makes one less faction to trade with. It doesnt happen at the beginning of the game, but when you reach midgame or late game, you have usually one or two factions left (beside your own).

You obviously find far more aggressive AIs than I usually do. Most of the time in my games, most of the factions that get eliminated were done in by me.

[Pandemoniak]

You indeed dont need it, despite you can play with. I'm just pointing that if Wealth make a better Science rate than Knowledge, you faction is totally disproportionate. It can happen. But most of the time, the best science rate is at FM+Knowledge, except for huge factions, where its green+Knowledge.

About the commerce thing, when you have 40 bases more than the biggest opposite faction, its pointless to have a better commerce rate, since you dont have commerce at all.
Moreover, the Hive and/or the Believer have a slight tendancy to destroy other factions, which makes one less faction to trade with. It doesnt happen at the beginning of the game, but when you reach midgame or late game, you have usually one or two factions left (beside your own).

[Drogue]

I think he's arguing that you don't need it (+2 Econ that is)

[Kirov]

Pande, how do you want to achieve +2 ECON without neither FM and Wealth?

[GeneralTacticus]

Past the +2 Economy, it only brings commercial additional revenues, which is not such a big deal. As I said, it can be intersting, but in a very disproportionate way.

The extra commerce income is hardly unimportant, unless you plan on going to war with every single faction simaltaneously.


EDIT: oh, and it also creates extra energy on base squares, but that is TRULY unimportant.

[Pandemoniak]

Past the +2 Economy, it only brings commercial additional revenues, which is not such a big deal. As I said, it can be intersting, but in a very disproportionate way.

[GeneralTacticus]

The +1 Economy bonus is not very effective on it's own, true, but if combined with a GA it provides the benefits of FM, and if combined with FM it brings in huge amounts of energy.

[Pandemoniak]

Its a future where we land on a living planet who defends itself from colonization by sending aggressive telepathic worms, Maniac, to me thats a real clarification about the needs of psychiatrist, though I still believe a good worker who know that he produces his own existence and environment wont need a psychiatrist.

About the Wealth thing, contrary to Lucky, I still think that valuing Wealth wont lead us anywhere than to a hell. If people and government value wealth that much, they will soon call for Free Market to raise more and more energy credits. Remember in what excesses the "lack of energy" -- while they already had plenty -brought the USA back on Old Earth.

And about the OOC comparaison, remember Knowledge has +1 Eff, whihc makes it very profitable for PK, while the difference of economy (+1) is not huge by itself (+1energy per base). I let you make the calcutation, but this +1 Wealth against this +2 Knowledge / +1 Efficiency would need a really disproportionate faction to be scientifically more efficient.
Moreover, +2Knowledge means a 20% "discount" on tech prices, meaning the more you advance, the better efficient it becomes.
I hope I was clear.

[Maniac]

Besides Kirov, extra Psych represents government support for matters such as cheaper education, mobility & public transport, social & health security, culture, cheaper drinks in the Rec Commons... Surely you cannot be against that?

Edit: seeing its name "Psych", I suppose it also contains support for religious and spiritual organizations, and going to the psychiatrist (???). Right? I didn't know our citizens needed that much mental healthcare. What kind of future is this?

[GeneralTacticus]

Do you have a problem with that? Combined with Wealth, the resultant economic benefits would more than outweigh the costs.

[Kirov]

I think we won't trigger the Golden Age without switching the silders on 10% or even 20% PSYCH.

[Drogue]

or the Virtual World

[lucky22]

Originally posted by Maniac
So if CCCP wants to prevent FM, two things can be done:
1) Give crawlers an important place in our economy. On Old Earth such mechanization would cause redundancies of human workers, but here on Alpha Centauri with our limited population there is always need for extra work forces.
2) Prepare for Golden Age. Not sure what we would need to do for that. Build Rec Commons and Network Nodes??

I believe 2) will also be abetted by cheap and easily available Holo Theatres.

[lucky22]

Originally posted by Drogue
I never said he had, though I think he would have disagreed with the pursuit of wealth above all else. I believe knowledge should be our aim, but then I am no Marxist.

This discussion has come up before, as well. Personally, I think [Wealth+Free Market]=[Hell on Chiron] pretty much as you are describing. [Wealth+Planned] on the other hand might even be seen as describing an idealized euro-socialism, which is indeed pretty darn close to the direction Marx and Engels wanted to promote.

Taking the issue to be the distribution of the access to resources for individuals, absolutely the confusion of "wealth" and "right to necessities" which provides the steam for the turbines of optional consumption markets is abhorrent. Planned economic choices are an alternative way to deal with the central problems of appetite and decisions regarding the allocation of resources. Wealth in this context can mean more resources not enslaved to the appetites of private, even sociopathic individuals. Ideally, of course.

[Drogue]

I never said he had, though I think he would have disagreed with the pursuit of wealth above all else. I believe knowledge should be our aim, but then I am no Marxist.