A good WWII scenario, finally!

[Alexander I]

The new feature of 16 civs on a gi-normus map allows us to make a BETTER WWII SCENARIO.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I found having to fight separate scenarios for each theater tiresome, and the burden of the cramped map for a whole WWII was frustrating, not to mention difficult to balance with only 7 civs. Now we have potential - glorious potential!

Let's try to come up with some ideas --

for the 16 civs:

Germany - Germany
France - France
Britain - Britain
Soviet Union - Russia
America - America
Japan - Japan
China - China
Italy - Rome
Turkey - Babylon
India? - India?
Poland - ?
Spain - ?
Scandinavian Countries - ?
Asian Countries - ?
Other Neutrals - ?

Who else should be included and who should play them? To balance a good scenario possibility like this will take a lot of input.

[JellyDonut]

Well, this is going to be quite an interesting thread!

First, we are going to have to establish the starting point for the scenario. Will it be in 1939, before the war actually began, or 1941, at the height of the Nazis' power and the beginning of the war in the Pacific? These seem like the two most obvious times for me.

I would like to lobby for 1941, because then we can get rid of Poland and replace it with someone else. France would still be around as the Vichy gov't in Southern France and its overseas possessions.

Take out India. They were owned by the United Kingdom at the time, and that leaves another slot for a civ. Here are my suggestions for the 16 civs.

Germany - Germans
Soviet Union - Russians
United Kingdom - British
France - French
Italians - Rome
Japanese - Japan
Chinese - China
United States - Americans
Greece - Greeks
Turkey - Babylonians (?)
Yugoslavia (still neutral in '41) - Iroquois (?)
Spain (also neutral in '41) - Aztecs (?)
Australia & New Zealand - Zulus (?)
Canada (?) - Persians (?)
Latin America (Mexico, Central America, South America) - Indians (?)
Sweden - Egyptians (?)

That should cover just about the entire world, no?

[Mars]

I agree. You could start the scenario at the pearl harbor invasions to open it dramitically. I think that one of the civs should probaly be a generic neutrals to cover every onelse

BTW: Great post

[KrazyHorse]

Or you could start it on Sept. 3, 1939 when the war actually started. If you wait until the end of 1941, then France is already taken, The Germans have made their initial, most successful attack on Russia, the Balkans have been pacified, the Battle of Britain is over and El Alamein is only a few months away. The Germans have made almost all the advances that they will ever make, and in Churchill's words, you've already reached "the end of the beginning".

If you want a dramatic start, then May 1940 does a good job, as the "phony war" has drawn to a close and the Blitz on France is about to begin.

[Roman]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
If you want a dramatic start, then May 1940 does a good job, as the "phony war" has drawn to a close and the Blitz on France is about to begin.

That's what I would suggest too.

[Rasbelin]

The idea is good, but you haven't thought the subject in depth (IMO).

You can of course make a WWII-Civ III scenario of
the whole war, but it's impossible to include all
the more important nations (remember Limit 16).
Turkey and Sweden (sorry, don't feel offended )
are not one of those, so they can be excluded right now.
India was one of them political and strategical factors in WWII in
Asia-Oceania and they can work as an instrument for the
brits in Asia-Oceania; so they should be included.
Africa wouldn't be a problem, due to the colonies of the
European nations. South America is abit more challenging,
because it should be neutral; and making a realistic neutral nation
isn't easy at all in this scenario (IMO).

The conclusion is that there's always those darn
nations that should be included because they excisted,
even if they didn't have a mayor role in WWII.

So the best thing to do, is to make two different
WWII scenarios; WWII in Europe and WWII in the Pacific
(compare to the Eastwind scenario in Civ II - CiC).

But if "we" should follow your idea about the WWII scenario,
then Finland and Norway should/must be included. Why?!?
Norway: operation Weserübung was one of the larger
operations in WWII - Finland: one of those who fought against
USSR (if necessary, I can tell more reasons for this) and
was actually an allie of the German Reich.

Because I'm lazy today , I'm not going to say
anything more for now. Perhaps I'll continue tomorrow...

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
If you want a dramatic start, then May 1940 does a good job, as the "phony war" has drawn to a close and the Blitz on France is about to begin.

Well thought, KrazyHorse!
You share my opinion.

By doing that, we wouldn't have to worry about Limit 16.
Then the list countries should be this (if only WWII in Europe):

Not in any specific order!

1 German Reich
2 United Kingdom
3 France
4 Italy
5 Soviet Union
6 Spain
7 Finland
8 Norway
9 Sweden
10 Yugoslavia
11 Greece
12 United States
13 Turkey
14 Bulgaria
15 Romania
16 Low Countries (Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg) or Swizerland

Denmark isn't included, because it would be "worthless".

[JellyDonut]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
If you want a dramatic start, then May 1940 does a good job, as the "phony war" has drawn to a close and the Blitz on France is about to begin.

Good thinking! At that time, the German player could decide whether or not to go to war with Russia.

I'm afraid Sweden, Yugoslavia and Turkey would have to be in the scenario, because they were neither allied with or taken over by the Nazis.

For whatever reason, Hitler never invaded Sweden, and to leave it out would leave a big hole in the map.

Turkey indeed played a major rôle in the war. Had Hitler decided to take it over (which would have been no problem), he could have marched into the Middle East and gotten the oil he needed, instead of attempting to get the Caspian oil supplies by going through Russia. This is a handy little conflict because we will have no trouble putting it in the scenario with the new resource model!

Yugoslavia, too, was eventually taken over by Hitler, but some speculate he could have taken it without bloodshed! He had allies on every side of the country and it would have been no problem surrounding it and not letting it have any supplies until it allied with Hitler.

Turkey and Yugoslavia both provide excellent possibilities to use strategies new to Civ 3 and to rewrite history.

[Mars]

Yah i guess it does make more sense to start it at the blitzkreg

[Dauphin]

If you want a dramatic start, then May 1940 does a good job, as the "phony war" has drawn to a close and the Blitz on France is about to begin.

Make it late March and you can have the Norway invasions (the "sideshow of a sideshow" as Churchill put it).

[Col Bigspear]

Originally posted by JellyDonut


For whatever reason, Hitler never invaded Sweden, and to leave it out would leave a big hole in the map.

They supplied Germany with Iron.

[Harlan]

I agree that it would be better to treat the Pacific and Europe theaters separately. They really were two separate wars happening at the same time.

WW2 Europe I'd start in April 1940 to include the attacks on Norway and Denmark, with:

1 Germany
2 Allies (British Empire and the US, but use events to prevent US units from getting to Europe till later)
3 France (incl. Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg)
4 Italy (incl. Axis minor allies of Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, etc)
5 Soviet Union
6 Spain
7 Finland
8 Norway and Denmark
9 Sweden
10 Yugoslavia
11 Greece
12 Turkey
13 Iraq
14 Portugal
15 Persia
16 Neutrals (Switzerland, Arabia, Afghanistan (if map goes that far east))

WW2 Pacific is much easier:

1. Japan
2. Allies (US, Britain, Australia, New Zealand, etc)
3. Dutch
4. Chinese
5. Communist Chinese
6. Soviet Union
7. Mongolia

Is anyone planning on making such scenarios? If so, I don't see how its possible until Civ3 has an events function.

[orange]

Originally posted by Mars
I agree. You could start the scenario at the pearl harbor invasions to open it dramitically. I think that one of the civs should probaly be a generic neutrals to cover every onelse

As KH said, the war began in Europe years earlier, and most of the blitzkreig was over by this point. In fact, November 42 was the high point of Axis power. Start from the beginning.

[Mars]

Originally posted by orange
As KH said, the war began in Europe years earlier, and most of the blitzkreig was over by this point. In fact, November 42 was the high point of Axis power. Start from the beginning.

If you read my later post, i withdrew and changed my opinion to the beginning of the blitzkreig.

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by Col Bigspear
They supplied Germany with Iron.

Not to mention all the volunteer troops that were sent
to assist Finland against USSR.