War of the Ring - beta

[kobayashi]

a belated congratz for finally getting your Lord of the Rings scenario past beta.

[Catfish]

I know it's been a while since you released (the final?) version of WOTR...

Final enough. I'm prepared to fix bugs and even tweak numbers if required, but I lack the motivation to implement and test major changes to the mechanics.

1) first I thought the Nazgul are very difficult to evade but on the third try and later on I managed to run for Bree and then Rivendell on the road asap. I sacrificed a few hobbits in front and at the rear of the main party. In one game all but one or two Nazguls appeared in front of Bree and, even though I lost many hobbits on defense all Nazguls were killed by Aragon and the rangers the next turn time and time again.

I lowered the strength of the Nazgul after earlier player comments. Sometimes you're going to get lucky with big stack kills.

I think Balrog is way to strong. His stats are the first thing I'd change. For several reasons: first, he's got a movement of 4, making him very hard to spot on time. Even if you try to run away, hobbits and Gimli have a movement of 3 so...

If I drop the Balrog's movement to 3, I think it'll be too easy to evade. What I might do is reduce its movement to 2 and give it the alpine flag. With the x2 road multiplier, that gives it an effective movement of 4, however, if the Balrog moves 3 squares, it will suffer a 50% penalty (due to fatigue) when attacking into the 4th. In my testing I found that the AI won't attack while fatigued. It's the same deal for Shelob, but she has the advantage of being able to move freely over web terrain.

Second, attacking him with Gandalf will result in Gandalf's death in 95% of the time, which is not really true as he killed the Balrog. Third, even if you knowingly sacrifice Gandalf, there's a huge chance you only damage the Balrog by 50% and no other Fellowship member would have the chance to do more damage than that anyway so you might end up losing many fellows in there. That would mean he generally escapes and Gandalf dies just to slow him off Did you really want that?

They killed each other. Gandalf's success rate is actually around 30% when attacking the Balrog on normal terrain, but really the main issue is whether the damaged Balrog can be reasonably finished off by another Fellowship member. Lowering the Balrog's defence from 10 to 8 (as you suggested) gives Gandalf an 80% chance of success. I believe those odds should be reserved for the Bridge (see below). Gandalf wins 51% of the time against a Balrog with a defence of 9. I'll see how that plays out. I haven't been burnt enough times in Moria to make drastic changes in favour of the Fellowship. I've attached a rules file with the modified Balrog stats (movement & defence).

And last but not least, I don't think there is much of a chance of you meeting the Balrog on Durin's Bridge where that 150% would count.

I've had numerous battles with the Balrog on the Bridge in play-tests. Often I'll wait for it there. A full-strength Gandalf has almost an 80% chance of victory defending from the Bridge. This increases to over 95% if he's fortified.

3)Isengard is not hard to defeat but the first time it took forever to get entmoot tech.

Just one tip on getting critical techs when you want them: adjust your tax rate depending on availability. Build up a cash surplus in slow periods; when something like The White Rider or Entmoot comes along, ramp up research.

On the downside, Osgiliath is very easily defendable. Especially if you conduct sorties with knights and kill all orcs on open field.

At what level of difficulty were you playing? What effect did the Winged Nazgul have on the siege of Gondor? The eastern bank of Osgiliath is full of defensive terrain: rivers, forests and hills. What was your attrition rate using knights against Ologs, Mumaks and Trolls with a minimum 50% defensive bonus? Did these heavy units not appear? I find that I have to abandon Osgiliath once Mordor begins its main assault, as it takes a fearful battering from Winged Nazgul, Mumaks, Ologs, Trolls, and countless Orcs and Uruks.

Denethor will despair if you lose Osgiliath and Boromir dies?

Denethor will despair if Boromir is killed and (Faramir is killed or Osgiliath is captured or Cair Andros is captured).

4) Shelob was shy against the "light of Aerendil" so Sam finished her of the first time. Not without fear on my behalf so that's ok too. I never encountered her the second time.

She wanders around.

I never encountered Gollum the first time on the other hand.

There's an 80% chance he will appear in the Sammath Naur.

I also have a minor suggestion I hope you won't kill me for . I absolutely loved Fav Flight's map in his Return of the King, particularly the mountains (Geo units). True, they are many unit slots wasted but I guess if you could make Barrow Down somehow change veteran status of the hobbits instead of upgrading them to other units...

The Civ2 engine would require the designer to define the exact tile co-ordinates for the transaction; to destroy the original and create a veteran in its place. What's more, the upgrades (using Leonardo's Workshop) provide a greater than 50% improvement. If I had more unit slots I wouldn't squander them on mountains, no matter how pretty .

I don't know how to edit out the shield and health bar of static units so maybe you could halp me on that.

That requires Mercator's SpriteGen utility. The method's a bit of a hack job and is becoming less effective as desktop resolutions increase.

I notice that you flipped some of the units horizontally. ToT mirrors the orientation of unit bitmaps depending on their direction of movement. For some reason, it doesn't do this when the AI moves; which is why I figured you've done what you've done. However, AI units will turn to face an attacker in combat, so those flipped Mumaks would be giving you the arse in every fight - in more ways than one.

I'm going to leave the graphics alone. One problem I have with that alternative cities set is style inconsistency. I'm not all that keen on graphics ripped from one 8-bit colour game to another (Civ2: FW) anyway. I prefer Curt's and Sarsstock's isometric cities.

[the Monarch]

If I drop the Balrog's movement to 3, I think it'll be too easy to evade. What I might do is reduce its movement to 2 and give it the alpine flag. With the x2 road multiplier, that gives it an effective movement of 4, however, if the Balrog moves 3 squares, it will suffer a 50% penalty (due to fatigue) when attacking into the 4th. In my testing I found that the AI won't attack while fatigued. It's the same deal for Shelob, but she has the advantage of being able to move freely over web terrain.

I guess 9 def and fatigue on the last turn would be ok for the Balrog. My guess is that he would attack with 50% strength. Grond did attack Osgiliath as it had a huge chance of success even with 10 att.

At what level of difficulty were you playing? What effect did the Winged Nazgul have on the siege of Gondor? The eastern bank of Osgiliath is full of defensive terrain: rivers, forests and hills. What was your attrition rate using knights against Ologs, Mumaks and Trolls with a minimum 50% defensive bonus? Did these heavy units not appear? I find that I have to abandon Osgiliath once Mordor begins its main assault, as it takes a fearful battering from Winged Nazgul, Mumaks, Ologs, Trolls, and countless Orcs and Uruks.

Olog-hai (emperor) - default dif level. True, once the gates are open, Ologs and trolls would be a tough nut to crack. But trolls would have a 60% chance to die on a river/forest square to a knight which is acceptable if there is a stack (especially if that stack read orc and the trolls were hiding from view if you know what I mean ). Mumaks are rare. There weren't all that many after just the first turns when the gate opened. Ologs are your worst enemies and are the only (common) units that can take down a spearman in Osgiliath but they die on Gandalf like there's no tomorrow. Gandalf will easily dispatch winged nazgul too so, before Grond appears he's very good defending Osgiliath. I guess he would kill the Witch King too but he died before Gandalf came to Osgiliath. You will lose spearmen but I had around 20, most vets when they started pounding. By then I switched Minas Tirith to spearmen and had one every turn or two. I switch maintenance early to Cair Andros and Osgiliath so as to maximize the prod in Minas Tirith. Don't get me wrong, it's not a piece of cake and at a point, when Grond came and I had to withdraw all heroes from Osgiliath so as to keep them alive, it coupled with 4 winged Nazguls on Osgiliath too (the fifth will die on Legolas in Cair Andros and the sixth was just killed by Gwaihir last turn) I uploaded the sav (turn 60 and frodo is down in Cirith Ungol). It was their swansong and it felt great. They lowered my def to half in one turn. But the next turn I decided to attack grond with the Dead and the stack of Nazguls (damaged as they were) all died to Gandalf, attacking from inside Osgiliath as Grond was gone... It was all downhill from there. True, I lost Pelargir a turn or so later but got it back in the same turn, happy that no buildings were pillaged. I loved the 5 black ships too . Again, this does not minimize the effort, the pounding is right were it should be. Perhaps a few more orcs as I love those guys dying on the walls. My guess is if Osgiliath lost it's river bonus, it would be the other way around so I don't think it's the way to go. I guess it would be kinda frustrating but once Shelob and Grond are dead, Mordor should have some more reinforcements. The other fronts (especially Belfalas, Pelargir and Dale are a lot more challenging)

The Civ2 engine would require the designer to define the exact tile co-ordinates for the transaction; to destroy the original and create a veteran in its place. What's more, the upgrades (using Leonardo's Workshop) provide a greater than 50% improvement. If I had more unit slots I wouldn't squander them on mountains, no matter how pretty .

True but then again the hobbits are upgraded in turn 3 or 4. They are useless in combat prior to that, even wolves will cut them down easily on hills. Barrow wights too will easily dispatch them before upgrade so Bombadil is kind of a must... That will live the shire militia waiting for a while (at least 6 turns since there's not much gold) and the Nazgul will roam free in the Shire even after Frodo reached Bree and even later, when he reaches Rivendell which is not that true to the story, is it... True this presents the player with a tough choice and luck will play a major part in it as the wolves and low morale are your main enemies in the shire... Too bad they were nine wraiths .

That requires Mercator's SpriteGen utility. The method's a bit of a hack job and is becoming less effective as desktop resolutions increase.

It won't work only for the 4 original units (the 2 mountdooms and !, *). Am I missing something here? Do you need to write something in the rules.txt too?

I notice that you flipped some of the units horizontally. ToT mirrors the orientation of unit bitmaps depending on their direction of movement. For some reason, it doesn't do this when the AI moves; which is why I figured you've done what you've done. However, AI units will turn to face an attacker in combat, so those flipped Mumaks would be giving you the arse in every fight - in more ways than one.

That's a nasty bug indeed. I didn't like the way the ships moved the other way around. And the mumaks are sometimes attacked from Pelargir from the top so they aren't rotating. Better this way than to attack with their arses, don't you think .

I'm going to leave the graphics alone. One problem I have with that alternative cities set is style inconsistency. I'm not all that keen on graphics ripped from one 8-bit colour game to another (Civ2: FW) anyway. I prefer Curt's and Sarsstock's isometric cities.

The cities are riped from caesar 2, civ 3 and MGE's midgard (combination of Elvish and Human cities slightly changed). I tried to take into account the shadow (most of the time falling on the lower left side, like the shadow of your forest trees). All of these games use isometric graphics. The midgard cities are probably not the best but I still think they look better than now. Here and here are a preview with the mountains. As I said, hobbits are cannonfodder before upgraded and very low on def even after that (low fp). Since they are so important, I think I'd change the ! with a nature mount doom and use the same replacement of the hobbit with his veteran counterpart when he dies as you've done at Sammath Naur. Naturally, I'd use the upgraded version of the hobbits from the beginning as they are very weak to begin with... They would still be damaged heavily by barrow wights (maibe up their attack by one or so to make the challenge higher even on Bree after they pass)

[the Monarch]

Actually I've found out you can't hide the shields only for some of the units as follows: slots no. 10, 22, 41, 42, 47, 61, 62, 69, 72, 73, 78, 79, 80 and 81. Right now only no. 47 and the last three are hidden anyway. What's more, before I read about using the static.spr (please excuse me beeing a n00b in TOT modding ) I noticed that some units were animated (wrongly, say the spearman was that awful excuse of a Dragon from the fantasy game etc), while others were correct. It turns out they were the exact units that can now hide their shields. I wonder why is that? is there some sort of override to the static spr directly from the units.bmp file? Altering the bmp will not change the units mentioned while the static.spr will not change the others....

[Catfish]

But trolls would have a 60% chance to die on a river/forest square to a knight which is acceptable if there is a stack (especially if that stack read orc and the trolls were hiding from view if you know what I mean ).

I get 34%, but still...

Mumaks are rare. There weren't all that many after just the first turns when the gate opened.

Six Mumakil under Mordor's control lead the assault on Gondor, the remainder come from the south (under Harad's control). I can very easily introduce a breeding programme.

Ologs are your worst enemies and are the only (common) units that can take down a spearman in Osgiliath but they die on Gandalf like there's no tomorrow. Gandalf will easily dispatch winged nazgul too so, before Grond appears he's very good defending Osgiliath. I guess he would kill the Witch King too but he died before Gandalf came to Osgiliath.

Against archers, Legolas or eagles? Did Gandalf make archers redundant?

You will lose spearmen but I had around 20, most vets when they started pounding. By then I switched Minas Tirith to spearmen and had one every turn or two. I switch maintenance early to Cair Andros and Osgiliath so as to maximize the prod in Minas Tirith. Don't get me wrong, it's not a piece of cake and at a point, when Grond came and I had to withdraw all heroes from Osgiliath so as to keep them alive,...

Perhaps Gandalf the White is still overpowered. I've already nobbled him once. By holding Osgiliath, you also put a dent in Mordor's production of siege equipment. That may have to change.

...it coupled with 4 winged Nazguls on Osgiliath too (the fifth will die on Legolas in Cair Andros and the sixth was just killed by Gwaihir last turn) I uploaded the sav (turn 60 and frodo is down in Cirith Ungol).

Defeated Winged Nazgul aren't always permanently destroyed. The message is: 'A Winged Nazgûl's mount is slain! Its rider departs the battlefield.' There's a 62.5% (5/8) chance that they will return as non-veterans. It will take them at least 5 turns to arrive at the front lines.

It was their swansong and it felt great. They lowered my def to half in one turn. But the next turn I decided to attack grond with the Dead and the stack of Nazguls (damaged as they were) all died to Gandalf, attacking from inside Osgiliath as Grond was gone... It was all downhill from there...

...Again, this does not minimize the effort, the pounding is right were it should be. Perhaps a few more orcs as I love those guys dying on the walls. My guess is if Osgiliath lost it's river bonus, it would be the other way around so I don't think it's the way to go. I guess it would be kinda frustrating but once Shelob and Grond are dead, Mordor should have some more reinforcements.

Excellent... but, of course, quite unacceptable. Since your situation seems to be the exception to the rule, I need to be conservative with any upgrades to Mordor's attack. Things can go downhill very rapidly if you lose a key hero and defenders can't replenish their health at a sufficient rate. In earlier play-tests I have lost both Osgiliath and Minas Tirith.

Barrow wights too will easily dispatch them before upgrade so Bombadil is kind of a must...

If you do it right, the Barrow-wights in the tomb will only get a shot at your upgraded versions, but there's still a risk of defeat.

True this presents the player with a tough choice and luck will play a major part in it as the wolves and low morale are your main enemies in the shire...

A tough choice is what I was after.

That's a nasty bug indeed. I didn't like the way the ships moved the other way around. And the mumaks are sometimes attacked from Pelargir from the top so they aren't rotating. Better this way than to attack with their arses, don't you think .

I'm used to it now; it's the same in every game of ToT. I think it looks stranger when they flip the wrong way during combat.

Here and here are a preview with the mountains. As I said, hobbits are cannonfodder before upgraded and very low on def even after that (low fp). Since they are so important, I think I'd change the ! with a nature mount doom and use the same replacement of the hobbit with his veteran counterpart when he dies as you've done at Sammath Naur. Naturally, I'd use the upgraded version of the hobbits from the beginning as they are very weak to begin with...

That's the idea. They require total protection until they upgrade. Even with moderately high HP values, it's not that difficult to promote upgraded hobbits to veteran status by attacking wolves (only 1 defence) out of a stack. If the only benefit to obtaining the barrow-blades is veteran status, then I'm sure most players would bypass the sojourn in the barrow-mound and leave Bombadil well alone. The mountains look very nice, but at this stage I'm not going to rework the Barrow-mounds area.

BTW, I'm considering streamlining the hobbit heroes' stats: setting a maximum defence of 3 (to reduce the likelihood of them defending a stack), but making them a little tougher overall.

Actually I've found out you can't hide the shields only for some of the units as follows: slots no. 10, 22, 41, 42, 47, 61, 62, 69, 72, 73, 78, 79, 80 and 81. Right now only no. 47 and the last three are hidden anyway. What's more, before I read about using the static.spr (please excuse me beeing a n00b in TOT modding ) I noticed that some units were animated (wrongly, say the spearman was that awful excuse of a Dragon from the fantasy game etc), while others were correct. It turns out they were the exact units that can now hide their shields. I wonder why is that? is there some sort of override to the static spr directly from the units.bmp file? Altering the bmp will not change the units mentioned while the static.spr will not change the others....

I take it you mean that you can hide shields for those slots listed. Yes, there's an override (for both static and animated sprites), but it's in rules.txt. See here. You need to zero the override bit for each unit with a hidden health bar.

[the Monarch]

I get 34%, but still...

Knights against trolls on forest or river will prevail IMHO. On hills or rivered hills is a whole other thing (unless they are damaged...). I tend to use Faramir sometimes but not to endanger him much.

Six Mumakil under Mordor's control lead the assault on Gondor, the remainder come from the south (under Harad's control). I can very easily introduce a breeding programme.

Weren't they 16 or so ? No, really the problem is a more complex one IMHO. You will have time to muster quite a bit of troops if you play your cards right. I know you must think ahead. I research Warriors of Lamedon first. You will need plenty of spearmen especially in the south first were you are more likely to lose them (no river bonus in Pelargir and horsemen top orcs on attack). Belfalas is even worst with 50% against blackship attack...

What I'd like from those mumaks is to come on later, not just as the gates open. They win, all are in awe, they are neatly stacked on the lowest def tile east of Osgiliath and quite damaged. Even if you waste 2 or 3 knights to kill the stack, you won't think twice. Think what if Grond protected them on their way back to heal and come again for another wave of kills? They must come later, after you muster Rohan. Or AGAIN, after you muster Rohan.

I would like to bypass Bombadil because research tends to linger unfortunately. This last testplay I started yesterday I managed to do so with little problems. I know what you mean, run for the swords but on the way back, if you don't have more then one hobbit you'll lose the poor guy (even Merry's def bonus seems to have no effect against wights. I thought they were air units but I see they have only the ability to move through impassable terrain... ToT editing seems great compared to MGE). I guess you could send Pippin since he's of not much use if you still have Merry but I'm not that devious Anyway, Sam and Merry are my first choices. You might even veteranize them. But if you're down to red, then you have to fortify, wait for all five of them and prey they come one at a time not all at once. I hate that movement drops with health... This time it seems the wights were of haunting some other place, I managed to slip past them. It's just dumb luck, no real strategy in it. Safer with Bombadil I guess. But 10 turns of research... Plus I hate it when they tumble over hard terrain and they spread out. Lazy little hobbits . I'd remove a forest and turn it to grasslands so they make it in the third turn on the entrance. Why, because if you don't make it, sometimes there's a chance a Nazgul will come to Buckland from the south and kill the unfortunates... That's a definite startover but still, really annoying and just for one grassland instead of a forest. I might upload a pic later on.

As for the Nazguls, I managed to surround them and keep them safe till Glorfindel came and killed them one by one. Kinda lame but Rangers will die in vain on them if they are on hills. The Lord died on Aragorn at Amon Sul. That was great. Some others died on Sarn Ford and Bree. One died on a veteran hobbit on hills .

Against archers, Legolas or eagles? Did Gandalf make archers redundant?

Perhaps Gandalf the White is still overpowered. I've already nobbled him once. By holding Osgiliath, you also put a dent in Mordor's production of siege equipment. That may have to change.

Legolas will kill one or even two Nazguls. He's doubled by archers so, if he's really damaged, they'll take the hit instead. Don't know wether the Nazguls were vets or had already died once on the elves. Don't know about the witch king though. He might chop Legolas although I keep him safe in Minas Tirith until the Lord dies (quite soon, way before I can muster Rohan, sadly). Eagles and archers will die but they will do damage. I tend to keep eagles away for this one. Gandalf will, as he should, get the lot of them but he will be damaged. I doubt you should tweak him his slightly better than Legolas at dealing with them. I usually keep him to attack the stack of Nazguls as eagles have a lower chance of killing them. It would be a shame for him to fall on a troll or something. He was invulnerable to weapons, wasn't he, hehe? Besides, he arrives as much of the mumaks are already dead in front of Osgiliath, AFTER they've done their fair share of victims. And he has no chance against Grond (or, at least, I didn't dare try). I lost him after the ring quest attacking somewhere in Rhun... If you want Osgiliath to fall just after entmoot, I guess that would require a bit of tweaking but, IMHO you should give Gondor some aid after Osgiliath falls because Minas Tirith would soon follow. Also, I'd give Eowyn the "attack air units flag" and theoden x3 against air if he is to have any chance to fall to the Witch king...

Excellent... but, of course, quite unacceptable. Since your situation seems to be the exception to the rule, I need to be conservative with any upgrades to Mordor's attack. Things can go downhill very rapidly if you lose a key hero and defenders can't replenish their health at a sufficient rate. In earlier play-tests I have lost both Osgiliath and Minas Tirith.

For me, I didn't keep any defense in Minas Tirith. All went to Osgiliath or Pelargir. I lost the latter because I forgot to send a hero there or to check on the rapidly depleting spearmen. But had I lost Osgiliath, I'd lost Minas Tirith too. If you want to prevent this, make some unmovable guards in Minas Tirith. Or remove the river from beneath Osgiliath, I guess I'd abandon it then .

In order to withstand all attacks, barracks in Osgiliath is crucial (for rapid healing). I build it right after the shrine. And I build barracks in most cities with decent production too right from the start, wouldn't want to support cannon fodder with precious shields... I guess that's why research tends to languish, those barracks cost a lot of maintenance. Of course, once you know what you're up against it's a lot easier. Saruman will give you some tribute sometimes... (woops). Still haven't lost Osgiliath in either of my games, though. Logistics is the key.

That's the idea. They require total protection until they upgrade. Even with moderately high HP values, it's not that difficult to promote upgraded hobbits to veteran status by attacking wolves (only 1 defence) out of a stack. If the only benefit to obtaining the barrow-blades is veteran status, then I'm sure most players would bypass the sojourn in the barrow-mound and leave Bombadil well alone. The mountains look very nice, but at this stage I'm not going to rework the Barrow-mounds area.

BTW, I'm considering streamlining the hobbit heroes' stats: setting a maximum defence of 3 (to reduce the likelihood of them defending a stack), but making them a little tougher overall.

Yes they do require protection and they do afterwards too. It's lame losing Frodo to some wolf before he even goes down in Moria. Which reminds me: why shouldn't you take the High Pass? How is it watched? The first game (which I abandoned because Frodo died on a wolf!!) I got Boromir and the hobbits through the highpass (it's easier, safer, shorter, no Balrog, etc). Just send Gandalf in Moria... NOT the way to go... Place some orc garrisons?

Today I playtested 'till Lorien. I couldn't go down in Moria for a couple of turns because... The Balrog was on the other side of the stairs. Then I went down and a whole party of orcs and one troll were on the left side. When I went for the troll with Gandalf (you don't stand a chance defending) I saw the Balrog on the right. Not enough movement tu run up the stairs, that's it, I'm screwed. He didn't attack, he moved in the other direction... With the troll and orcs killed I thought I'd go to the north but I'd waste a lot of turns so I thought I'd sneak up on the Balrog instead. Which I did and he continued to flee. What a chicken. I met him again, right at the exit of the great tomb hall (he was 2 squares to the north) and again I tought I was screwed. Stacked all units behind Gandalf and hoped for the best. Some orcs attacked but he again fleed. Then I got everybody to the bridge, fortified Gandalf and was quite confident. He failed to appear so, after all except Boromir got out I sent Gandalf after him (I'm not gonna lose the White Rider just for a stupid daemon....) He finally came, right next to a slightly damaged Gandalf, by the bridge. I decided to attack him because he might have wondered off and I wanted to test your 52% theory . he was down to less than 10% and I easily finished him with Boromir but all the rest were in the boats by now... Next turn I started researching the White Rider. I don't know if it's ok. Also, the risk of the Balrog (or an orc) closing the way into Moria for more than a turn (2 for me) is something that needs adressing, I guess. I never met the Balrog in the right spot (in 3 games). What if you created him on the bridge or in MORIA (city) right when Gandalf entered Moria?

[the Monarch]

Sorry if I give you too much work, my opinion is that it's great as it is, mostly. You think you should change stuff . I agree I still don't know how to make the player go to barrow downs unless you keep those slots occupied and it's quite fun to start the quest for the ring like this. But I wouldn't lower their defensive stats. Frodo died on a hill to a wolf, something I'll never forgive you for . And hunting for wolves with slow hobbits on a quest is quite uncertain. Both of the games I finished I had Frodo not veteran till the end.

They won't defend if you have a single 4 def unit fortified in the city/stack so don't lower their defense cause it's very dnagerous/frustrating. Even now, If you are attacked by a (fast!) wolf they will take forever to recover. Also, for some reason, the AI only takes the def value into consideration when it calculates which unit to defend in a stack, not the hp/fp so they are safe if the spearman isn't chiped.

[Catfish]

Knights against trolls on forest or river will prevail IMHO.

Yes, 34% of the time. That's not opinion; it's obtained from an empirically-derived algorithm developed by Marquis de Sodaq, et al. See these threads: Info: Combat (GL) and The wheel reinvented: a combat probability calculator. That figure complies with empirical results on my machine; I don't know what's happening at your end. Do you reload fights?

I know what you mean, run for the swords but on the way back, if you don't have more then one hobbit you'll lose the poor guy...

Very likely.

I thought they were air units but I see they have only the ability to move through impassable terrain.

Yes, they lurk in the bedrock. The barrow chamber is located on an island to prevent them from wandering around the map.

It's just dumb luck, no real strategy in it.

Luck is the nature of the beast. I wouldn't say there's no strategy in it – but we are talking about a single engagement here. If you haven't researched Bombadil, you have the option to send in 3 hobbits (higher stakes, lower risk) or send in either Merry or Pippin (lower stakes, higher risk).

But had I lost Osgiliath, I'd lost Minas Tirith too. If you want to prevent this, make some unmovable guards in Minas Tirith. Or remove the river from beneath Osgiliath, I guess I'd abandon it then .

Quite, but I don't see the point in creating unmovable guards. If you wish to clear everyone out of Minas Tirith and throw them into Osgiliath, it's your choice. If you lose all of your forces trying to hold a less defendable city, whose fault is that? In the current version of the scenario, you believe it's too easy to hold Osgiliath. If I change that, as you requested, then clearly you're going to have to rethink your strategy.

IMHO you should give Gondor some aid after Osgiliath falls because Minas Tirith would soon follow.

No, losing all of your forces defending an inferior stronghold would be a tactical mistake on your part. Heroes and 'research' are your aid. Use them as you see fit.

In order to withstand all attacks, barracks in Osgiliath is crucial (for rapid healing). I build it right after the shrine.

I do exactly the same.

Saruman will give you some tribute sometimes... (woops).

I had that happen to me once in all my play-tests. I have a record of it: it occurred on turn 39, 3 turns after Isengard mobilised. Solution: I just killed negotiations with Isengard following its mobilisation; that's when the cash begins to flow. You should no longer be pestered by the Voice of Saruman during the battle for Rohan.

Which reminds me: why shouldn't you take the High Pass? How is it watched? The first game (which I abandoned because Frodo died on a wolf!!) I got Boromir and the hobbits through the highpass (it's easier, safer, shorter, no Balrog, etc).

An encounter with enemy units in the High Pass will add 2 points to Mordor's mobilisation counter. Three points might make you think twice.

When I went for the troll with Gandalf (you don't stand a chance defending) I saw the Balrog on the right. Not enough movement tu run up the stairs, that's it, I'm screwed. He didn't attack, he moved in the other direction... With the troll and orcs killed I thought I'd go to the north but I'd waste a lot of turns so I thought I'd sneak up on the Balrog instead. Which I did and he continued to flee. What a chicken. I met him again, right at the exit of the great tomb hall (he was 2 squares to the north) and again I tought I was screwed. Stacked all units behind Gandalf and hoped for the best. Some orcs attacked but he again fleed.

I may need to increase its A/D at the expense of HP/FP.

I decided to attack him because he might have wondered off and I wanted to test your 52% theory .

*Cough* See above.

Also, the risk of the Balrog (or an orc) closing the way into Moria for more than a turn (2 for me) is something that needs adressing, I guess.

I could seal off the area until Gandalf dispatches the Moria gate trigger; then it would be up to you to get your backside down the stairs before something blocked them.

I never met the Balrog in the right spot (in 3 games). What if you created him on the bridge or in MORIA (city) right when Gandalf entered Moria?

That's an option. I could also restrict its movement using the previous method. Then again, maybe I don't want it to appear in the 'right spot'. After all, this is a game not a simulation. There's an old SPI board game called War of the Ring where the Balrog can randomly appear at the High Pass, Cirith Ungol or the Black Gate. Keeps it interesting.

But I wouldn't lower their defensive stats. Frodo died on a hill to a wolf, something I'll never forgive you for .

They won't defend if you have a single 4 def unit fortified in the city/stack so don't lower their defense cause it's very dnagerous/frustrating. Even now, If you are attacked by a (fast!) wolf they will take forever to recover.

You're just sloppy . Wolves are more dangerous than orcs on attack. I said I was going to cap the hobbits' defence at 3, not make them weaker. You might notice that Gandalf the White only has a defence of 4, but he's a beast. That's due to his high HP and FP. High A to D ratios keep the AI aggressive.

Both of the games I finished I had Frodo not veteran till the end.

That's the same for me. Sam is the priority for obtaining veteran status.

Also, for some reason, the AI only takes the def value into consideration when it calculates which unit to defend in a stack, not the hp/fp so they are safe if the spearman isn't chiped.

That's right; which means they are not safe in a stack of spearmen, unless the latter are veterans and they are not.

[the Monarch]

Yes, 34% of the time.

Sloppy, yes, I ment uruks . Actually I attack orc or uruk stacks and I might end up damaging a hidden troll and losing a knight. I take the stack with the second knight if the troll is damaged so much, the orc will defend instead. I haven't encountered stacks of multiple trolls or ologs so far so I guess it's ok but still 73% on uruks (on hills with river) is worst than 0,3% (the chance they have to kill a vet spearman in Osgiliath). If you have more knights than spearmen I guess it's ok to take out stacks of potentially lucky orcs (sometimes I take out 4 at a time). And it's most recommended against siege engines. Yes I know these utilities and no, I don't reload for every lost knight as I think that'll take away both the fun and accuracy of the testplay. But, since you challenged me, I'll give you some reasons why I like keeping Osgiliath:

- firstly, at least in theory, it's better to have a single funnel of a front than an overstretched front line. Losing Osgiliath will make reinforcing Cair Andros harder, open it to rear attacks, lose you a very near base to heal your heroes when Grond comes and you want to keep them away from the frontline and, most important, perhaps, open the way for enemy siege units to move in and attack in the same turn, without time for you to take them out prior to that in knight sorties (you mentioned they get a bonus in siege units if they take Osgiliath too!). My guess is you'll lose more troops this way than I did defending Osgiliath. Plus you have to reinstate the war effort with Gandalf if Denethor despairs (not much of a problem but still).
- secondly, the defense bonus in Minas Tirith is not much higher than in Osgiliath. (see Excel chart)
- thirdly, I like to have a pause with frodo and sam in Osgiliath (and possibly veteranize Frodo or Sam by a safe moping of a really damaged unit near Osgiliath) before I send them to Cirith Ungol without fear of them beeing caught up in the fight. I guess you could use Henneth Annûn as I do with Gollum instead but it would be harder to clean up those tiles without the road from Osgiliath.
- last but not least, if Grond defends the tile between Osgiliath and Minas Tirith you'll have to either suffer more losses to siege units or kill it immediately with Gandalf or the dead and that makes it a less important event (maibe increase its def to 10 or so, the Dead - one or two, rarely three - make shortlose of it right now, on river and I'm sure Gandalf would to)

Quite, but I don't see the point in creating unmovable guards. If you wish to clear everyone out of Minas Tirith and throw them into Osgiliath, the option is there. If you lose all of your forces trying to hold a less defendable city, whose fault is that? In the current version of the scenario, you believe it's too easy to hold Osgiliath. If I change that, as you requested, then clearly you're going to have to rethink your strategy.

Fixed guards - not a necessity, I won't lose them as it is, yes, I think I should rethink my strategy but not under the current circumstances (see Excel chart).

No, losing all of your forces defending an inferior stronghold would be a tactical mistake on your part. Heroes and 'research' are your aid. Use them as you see fit.

I'm not complaining. Hardest thing is the ring quest and the power march afterwards with only dwarves ignoring city walls . Actually I guess that seems a bit strange since holding Minas Tirith was supposed to be hardest .

The first idea is plausible. The second would create a mobile super-archer merely to contrive a result that has little bearing on the outcome of the scenario.

True but what exactly would that "super archer" change? If he's on open field he'll get killed by Nazgul and Eowyn, Gandalf and Legolas and even Merry are already even better than him in the city and better than archers... It was just a thought anyway. His chances (or Legolas and Eowyn's right now), would be to die 69% of the time if the Nazgul Lord would charge on them in Minas Tirith. Gandalf would slay the beast allright. I'd lower Eowyn's and Merry's defence to 3 and let Theoden weaken the Witch king. Eowyn, (Merry), Gandalf or the Eagles could then finish him off.

I had that happen to me once in all my play-tests. I have a record of it: it occurred on turn 39, 3 turns after Isengard mobilised. Solution: I just killed negotiations with Isengard following its mobilisation; that's when the cash begins to flow. You should no longer be pestered by the Voice of Saruman during the battle for Rohan.

Turn 30, before he mobilizes. And it's a good boost to research .

I may need to increase its A/D at the expense of HP/FP.

Ahem, that doesn't seem to stop orc suicidal attacks on Gandalf. Besides, the calculator says the Balrog has 78,9% chance of success (not the other way around), which is consistent with my tries. Fortifying him would turn it around for sure but in my tries he died 8 times out of 10 (normal def on Durin's Bridge). Might want to look that over, 12 attack is more like it with these hp/fp. And Gandalf's likely to have some minor damage from orcs until then...

I could seal off the area until Gandalf dispatches the Moria gate trigger; then it would be up to you to get your backside down the stairs before something blocked them.

I guess that would be ok.

That's an option. I could also restrict its movement using the previous method. Then again, maybe I don't want it to appear in the 'right spot'. After all, this is a game not a simulation. There's an old SPI board game called War of the Ring where the Balrog can randomly appear at the High Pass, Cirith Ungol or the Black Gate. Keeps it interesting.

If he's always the first beast you meet, the choice of Durin's Bridge is kinda lost. I admit I'd have run for cover if I hadn't seen him too late. Besides he seemed less interested in attacking me so I guess if that would always be the case than it would be kinda exciting to chase such a monster all the way to Durin's Bridge, haha (kidding here).

You're just sloppy . Wolves are more dangerous than orcs on attack. I said I was going to cap the hobbits' defence at 3, not make them weaker. You might notice that Gandalf the White only has a defence of 4, but he's a beast. That's due to his high HP and FP. High A to D ratios keep the AI aggressive.

How can you help it if 2 units with 3 movement (Frodo and Gimli, the bodyguard can't keep pace over rough terrain ?) I guess that's why they got that random out in civ 3 and later versions. I guess they make me more aggresive too . I think Boromir has the greatest chance to defeat a weakened Balrog over Aragorn or Legolas. Besides, he's the most dispensable one...

That's right; which means they are not safe in a stack of spearmen, unless the latter are veterans and they are not.

Do you still have non veteran spearmen ??. Cannon fodder (see Excel chart). Besides, Bree or Cair Andros are the only places where they're likely to be coupled (the hobbits with spearmen, that is). I think 6/1 hp/fp is ok for hobbits. Merry and Pippin are kinda low on def with just 4/1 (similar to 4/2/2 for spearmen)... I'd keep the 4 def but it's oyur call from 4 to 3 is a long way down

[Catfish]

But, since you challenged me, I'll give you some reasons why I like keeping Osgiliath:

I'm not objecting to your efforts to hold Osgiliath, but that you held it quite comfortably. In fact I thought that the ease with which you held the city was your main complaint with the scenario. I suspect it's even easier to hold Minas Tirith, but why fall back when you're not even breaking a sweat in Osgiliath.

- secondly, the defense bonus in Minas Tirith is not much higher than in Osgiliath. (see Excel chart)

Having spent time defending both cities (without Gandalf), I believe the +50% defensive bonus is significant. The combat odds only show the probability of a win/loss, not the amount of damage suffered by the victor. You will suffer a higher rate of attrition in Osgiliath than Minas Tirith through sheer volume of attacks. I suspect it's the combination of Gandalf the White's strength, particularly against winged Nazgul, coupled with the ability to take out unit stacks on the single east bank tile that makes the city very defendable. Take Gandalf out of the equation and then try comparing the two cities. Before I look at pulling the river from Osgiliath (making the city virtually worthless, and merely transferring the problem to Minas Tirith), I'll try the following:

• Changing tile (155, 173) to forest.
• Scaling Gandalf the White back to Gandalf the Grey level (movement rate and Aegis flag excepted). Therefore, will also prune Gandalf the Grey and the Balrog.
• Slightly increasing the probability of ologs, catapults and siege towers spawning in Minas Morgul.
• Increasing the number of trolls by 50% when Mordor mobilises.

BTW, what are 'total def', 'most likely to occur' and 'great difference in battle result' in that spreadsheet?

I'm not complaining. Hardest thing is the ring quest and the power march afterwards with only dwarves ignoring city walls .

You know that the elite Dunedain unit receives x8 to attack vs orc garrisons? Rhun and Harad is a different story.

True but what exactly would that "super archer" change? If he's on open field he'll get killed by Nazgul and Eowyn, Gandalf and Legolas and even Merry are already even better than him in the city and better than archers... It was just a thought anyway.

He'd be a second Eowyn. I edited that out of my last post because I didn't believe it was a debate worth having. The only reason you're considering this option is to attempt to reproduce Theoden's death from the book, not because he's especially capable against the Nazgul.

Turn 30, before he mobilizes. And it's a good boost to research .

Then I'll have to hack into Saruman's bank account.

Besides, the calculator says the Balrog has 78,9% chance of success (not the other way around), which is consistent with my tries. Fortifying him would turn it around for sure but in my tries he died 8 times out of 10 (normal def on Durin's Bridge). Might want to look that over, 12 attack is more like it with these hp/fp.

Hmm, yes, I'm not sure where my figure came from.

Besides he seemed less interested in attacking me so I guess if that would always be the case than it would be kinda exciting to chase such a monster all the way to Durin's Bridge, haha (kidding here).

I don't know the reason. I guess I'm going to have to start poking around in the scenario again. Sigh.

How can you help it if 2 units with 3 movement (Frodo and Gimli, the bodyguard can't keep pace over rough terrain ?) I guess that's why they got that random out in civ 3 and later versions.

Then you'll just have to move the bodyguard first. I can't do much about hard-coded stuff.

Do you still have non veteran spearmen ??.

That's not what I meant. Poor expression on my part. I'll rephrase: That's right; which means the hobbits are not safe in a stack of spearmen, unless the latter are veterans and the hobbits are not.

Besides, Bree or Cair Andros are the only places where they're likely to be coupled (the hobbits with spearmen, that is).

Spearmen was your example. Other units, including Fellowship members, also have defence values of 4. That's a problem if any of the hobbits become veterans. I imagine that if you have Aragorn, Gandalf and Sam (all veterans) in a stack and Sam leads the defence, you'll be more than slightly pissed off. BTW, this is a result of me reducing the defence values of many heroes to 4 (earlier in this thread), to encourage the AI to become more aggressive. I simply overlooked the stack defence issue with the hobbits.

I'd keep the 4 def but it's oyur call from 4 to 3 is a long way down

Again, I'm not making them weaker.

[the Monarch]

I'm not objecting to your efforts to hold Osgiliath, but that you held it quite comfortably. In fact I thought that the ease with which you held the city was your main complaint with the scenario. I suspect it's even easier to hold Minas Tirith, but why fall back when you're not even breaking a sweat in Osgiliath.

Precisely.

Having spent time defending both cities (without Gandalf), I believe the +50% defensive bonus is significant. The combat odds only show the probability of a win/loss, not the amount of damage suffered by the victor. You will suffer a higher rate of attrition in Osgiliath than Minas Tirith through sheer volume of attacks. I suspect it's the combination of Gandalf the White's strength, particularly against winged Nazgul, coupled with the ability to take out unit stacks on the single east bank tile that makes the city very defendable. Take Gandalf out of the equation and then try comparing the two cities. Before I look at pulling the river from Osgiliath (making the city virtually worthless, and merely transferring the problem to Minas Tirith), I'll try the following:

• Changing tile (155, 173) to forest.
• Scaling Gandalf the White back to Gandalf the Grey level (movement rate and Aegis flag excepted). Therefore, will also prune Gandalf the Grey and the Balrog.
• Slightly increasing the probability of ologs, catapults and siege towers spawning in Minas Morgul.
• Increasing the number of trolls by 50% when Mordor mobilises.

BTW, what are 'total def', 'most likely to occur' and 'great difference in battle result' in that spreadsheet?

Well, out of curiosity I managed to play some more yesterday. I don't like abandoning my cities to smelly orcs unless I have to . Until Mordor mobilises (turn 43 for me, couple of turns after I conquered Isengard) you don't get much pounding, just orcs. Lots of them but still, no problem holding on to Osgiliath. Btw, what time do you decide to abandon it? Right when the gates open (as the storyline) or only much later? By turn 62 I got Frodo and veteran Sam safely on Mount Doom. That's around 20 turns of (mediocre) pounding. The Nazgul Lord comes too soon, he doesn't even meet Gandalf, let alone Theoden, Eowyn and I never get Merry and Pippin to Minas Tirith (it would take forever). I have to confess I'm relieved when he's killed by Gwaihir after taking down just 2 archers. Nut much like the story goes... Nazguls die on Legolas in Cair Andros all the same with or without Gandalf. I hate it when eagles decide to "scramble" and die instead of leaving Legolas defend with greater odds. I have to station eagles and the dead in Minas Tirith as I use the former for reconnaisance. One more reason why I like keeping my front away from my "aerial base". I think the calculator got wrong the scramble factor (x4). Anyway. I wouldn't like it if Gandalf or the Balrog were pruned. They are maiar after all, unlike the rest of the folk. Besides, as I repeatedly said, Gandalf doesn't make much of a difference in defence against the Nazgul Lord, mumakils or Grond as he doesn't encounter them or I pull him out in front of Grond. Spearmen take down trolls and everything inferior listed above them in the spreadsheet easily. Grond dies rapidly from the dead. I guess 12 def might be ok, he only got one turn of stay in front of Osgiliath and would be even easier to kill in front of Minas Tirith. Mumaks and Ologs are the only random factor here. And believe me, Eowyn, Legolas and Gwaihir will get them and the lower Nazguls anyway as it is.

Which brings me to the main point of the discussion here: the chart. It illustrates combat probabilities in all three types of tiles (100, 150 and 200% bonus)."Total def" or total defend point factor is the total defence of a unit (a spearman has 4, 6 if he's veteran or fortified, 9 if both, etc. Maximum is 36 in Minas Tirith. 36/2/2 gives the hp/fp ratios as well. "Most likely to occur" means that in game you are most likely to encounter combats as that one (say any veteran spearman will defend before all knights, all veteran archers and so on against ground attacks and archers or heroes will face Nazguls). "great difference in battle result" means simply the very difference terrain makes on the turnout of the battle (an Olog has 13% of killing a vet spearman in Minas Tirith and 34% in Osgiliath as it is - which is quite a low difference compared to 83% which would happen if it weren't for that river). Since Ologs are the highest (trolls die on spearmen like all the other inferior folk) I don't see this as a great thing. Trully I lost more spearmen to Haradrim Black Ships in Belfalas and Pelargir than to Sauron, the Easterlings and Isengard alltogether on the rest of the map!!). So far I got 24 casualties and, as I said, the war is kinda over for spearmen...
I still got 52 left without the guards in Minas Tirith which I swap for the Knights of Dol Amroth instead. I never needed them in any of my games but I did need the Lamedon ones...

Changes 1 and 3 in your list seem ok to me. Change 2 I've already adressed, I'd hate it if Gandalf just became another say Eomer... He's damn special and he still can't take out a Rhun spearman behind citywalls without great fear of losing him. He'll become useless and that wouldn't change much on the outcome of the siege. Change 4 is great! but only if you remove the damn river. Troll has 9% chance of killing veteran spearman as it is. Come on. I know you ment the attrition and all but things are simpler: you kill the troll, no matter how much damage, barracks will heal all your (surviving) units by the beginning of your turn. Lower chances are some Ologs survive, you get the lot of them with the knights. I never got more than 20 attacks on a turn and I got roughly 30 units stationed in Osgiliath. I lost many knights doing sorties out of Osgiliath but hey, I'm doing ok. Suit yourself, I've already listed the benefits of keeping the cork on Anduin, I'm not convinced to give it up as it is and let myself at the mercy of siegetowers in Minas Tirith...

You know that the elite Dunedain unit receives x8 to attack vs orc garrisons? Rhun and Harad is a different story.

Yes, I know, Mordor's a piece of cake but Harad and Rhun are different...

He'd be a second Eowyn. I edited that out of my last post because I didn't believe it was a debate worth having. The only reason you're considering this option is to attempt to reproduce Theoden's death from the book, not because he's especially capable against the Nazgul.

True, not that important but still not much use for the guy in any other way than mopping up in front of Osgiliath... You definetly can't charge Rhun Garrisons with him .

Then I'll have to hack into Saruman's bank account.

Haha. Forgot to mention he gave me another tribute. Do you consider it cheating if I accept money he offers for a peace treaty that he would otherwise impose on me anyway? (edit: I got a last minute idea: how about you make negotiations only one way - he calls you, you don't).

I don't know the reason. I guess I'm going to have to start poking around in the scenario again. Sigh.

Sorry for that but hey, it's for a good cause. It's the most fun and accurate LotR scenario I've seen.

Then you'll just have to move the bodyguard first. I can't do much about hard-coded stuff.

Man, I did, Frodo legged behind and got wasted for his laziness. Bilbo still can't get over it. Losing the ring like that... I use double escorts now and loads of Elven Marksmen and Glorfindel. It's a whole posse. I guess you can't blame me much if I fortify a markman where those damn wolves keep reappearing near Rivendell?

And another thing I mentioned earlier: could you please change tile 69/69 to grassland so all hobbits end up on the entrance of Barrow-downs at the same time since it's all that important that they all go in together (see picture). I mentioned I lost the ones that legged behind to a Nazgul heading for Buckland from the south...

Spearmen was your example. Other units, including Fellowship members, also have defence values of 4. That's a problem if any of the hobbits become veterans. I imagine that if you have Aragorn, Gandalf and Sam (all veterans) in a stack and Sam leads the defence, you'll be more than slightly pissed off. BTW, this is a result of me reducing the defence values of many heroes to 4 (earlier in this thread), to encourage the AI to become more aggressive. I simply overlooked the stack defence issue with the hobbits.

Again, I'm not making them weaker.

I guess it's ok but you'd have to give them a lot of hp/fp to counter 25% loss in the def factor. Your call as always. I hope I'm actually helping more than annoying you with our chats here and thanks a lot for making Wotr and taking time to review all these tricky aspects. I think we might do some improvement here .

[Catfish]

Until Mordor mobilises (turn 43 for me, couple of turns after I conquered Isengard) you don't get much pounding, just orcs. Lots of them but still, no problem holding on to Osgiliath.

Turn 43 is quite early (before Mordor automatically mobilises). Did you trigger this by losing Fellowship members? Mordor's assault is staggered, in case the player has the misfortune of causing Mordor to mobilise early. The final phase, which includes the uruks, ologs and Grond, doesn't arrive until turn 50. I've now set this to turn 44. Phase 2 has been elevated from turn 25 to 22. Of course, these will only come into play if Mordor is already mobilised; it's explained elsewhere in this thread.

Btw, what time do you decide to abandon it? Right when the gates open (as the storyline) or only much later?

Either as soon as the gates open or when the first winged Nazgul appear. It's force of habit; the scenario used to be harder.

Besides, as I repeatedly said, Gandalf doesn't make much of a difference in defence against the Nazgul Lord, mumakils or Grond as he doesn't encounter them or I pull him out in front of Grond.

You said previously that you withheld him from Grond and that he came late to the Witchking's party, but you also said he beat the crap out of a bunch of other heavy units in the defence of Osgiliath:

Ologs are your worst enemies and are the only (common) units that can take down a spearman in Osgiliath but they die on Gandalf like there's no tomorrow. Gandalf will easily dispatch winged nazgul too so, before Grond appears he's very good defending Osgiliath.

I'm not suggesting that he should fall in these battles, but I'd like to see him damaged enough that he drops down the defender queue. I do not want Gandalf and Legolas to render Archers redundant. If I reduced his HP/FP, I could always compensate his attack. However, it's been a while since I played the scenario, so I'll acquiesce to your request to leave him intact.

Change 4 is great! but only if you remove the damn river.

The river isn't the problem. Mordor's assault is the problem. If it cannot put a dent in Osgiliath + river, then the same composition of forces doesn't have a hope in hell of capturing Minas Tirith.

Haha. Forgot to mention he gave me another tribute. Do you consider it cheating if I accept money he offers for a peace treaty that he would otherwise impose on me anyway?

Well I intend to kill that stone dead. If your position in the scenario is in part due to accelerated research as a result of this exploit, then you're going to find things doubly difficult with the upcoming changes.

(edit: I got a last minute idea: how about you make negotiations only one way - he calls you, you don't).

Negotiation/Negotiator events, Isengard = listener. In my case, I never actually demanded it, he offered it as a sweetener; over 2000 gold, in fact. I've taken a different tack - without touching his gold. Saruman might not be quite so obliging now.

Man, I did, Frodo legged behind and got wasted for his laziness. Bilbo still can't get over it. Losing the ring like that... I use double escorts now and loads of Elven Marksmen and Glorfindel. It's a whole posse.

Yeah, I see what you mean. Never had too many problems with laggers as, at this stage of the game, I've largely kept the Fellowship intact and there's always someone on hand to provide cover. It would be nice if you could group units like in Civ4. And I, too, have used Glorfindel, and even eagles, in this role.

I hope I'm actually helping more than annoying you with our chats here and thanks a lot for making Wotr and taking time to review all these tricky aspects.

Revisiting this scenario is a bit of a chore, but I don't like leaving things broken .

[the Monarch]

Turn 43 is quite early (before Mordor automatically mobilises). Did you trigger this by losing Fellowship members?

No but I beat the crap out of Saruman and I guess that triggered it . Could've been turn 44.

The game is now over (84 objectives - Moria is damn stacked and only dwarves can go there so I got the hobbits to go there as well just for a look-see) but I must say, second or third time, as you play the part after the ring quest things are more predictable and less intriguing. First time it was a REAL challenge, not knowing the map and always suffering attrition from horsemen. Only "fellow" I lost was Gimli, on his way to defend some farflung Southron city. He was stacked with a spearman and of course that spearman chose to defend instead . No hills in Harad means more casualties I guess. Seems Gimli is the coward here, spearmen always seemed to defend Pelargir instead also (main reason why I sent him there anyway). I wonder why? All the rest took to the walls if they weren't damaged.

Either as soon as the gates open or when the first winged Nazgul appear. It's force of habit; the scenario used to be harder.

So it is worthless for you, river or not. My main concern is that the player would actually suffer from events if he lost Osgiliath (siege towers, etc - see previous posts) so the only way to abandon it is to be forced out of there. Don't see that happening according to the spreadsheet unless you mass Olog hai and mumakil production...

You said previously that you withheld him from Grond and that he came late to the Witchking's party, but you also said he beat the crap out of a bunch of other heavy units in the defence of Osgiliath

True but I forgot to mention than any other hero and spearman would perform great on anything except siege units. Ologs died on spearmen 50% of the time and there were only 5 mumaks for Mordor (checked the casualties at the end). Gandalf, like the rest suffered attrition and spearmen were the main defenders (80 to 90% of the time). But I had no fear of losing Osgiliath (like I did of losing Pelargir). Other fronts lose you a lot more troops and I find that unacceptable.

The river isn't the problem. Mordor's assault is the problem. If it cannot put a dent in Osgiliath + river, then the same composition of forces doesn't have a hope in hell of capturing Minas Tirith.

True. But perhaps losing Osgiliath to Mordor helps a lot against Minas Tirith indirectly. You wouldn't be able to scout with eagles, make sorties against siege engines before they attack, help Frodo and Sam effectively, won't have a nearby base for your heroes to flee from unwanted attacks... I already mentioned all these but I'm no expert as neither of my games didn't lose me Osgiliath... Sorties from Cair Andros are especially not recommended as there is no road and the random might prevent your victorious knights from returning in time. Only Faramir is good there, even Rangers have too few movement points.

Well I intend to kill that stone dead. If your position in the scenario is in part due to accelerated research as a result of this exploit, then you're going to find things doubly difficult with the upcoming changes.

Could be the reason, but only partially. I agree with you on this one, it really isn't at all true to the story. You would, (as you should?) benefit from Saruman's tresury twice (conquering Isengard and retaking a city from the shire although that yielded me 4500 gold or so ). I've read the events and opened the cheatmode after my first play to see how different it is modding civ2ToT compared to MGE which I did a long time ago. You kinda lost me with the masks and flags (difficult to follow). It's great for the enthusiastic scenario builder. And the sprite generator is great. I wonder if civ 4 has such a possibility for (easy?) modding? I've done my share of modding for civ 3 and it's a HUGE killer of time and has no events unless you can tweak the game a bit....

Saruman might not be quite so obliging now.

It says he's "loyal" in the foreign advisor tab, whatever that means.

Revisiting this scenario is a bit of a chore, but I don't like leaving things broken .

Can't wait to see your changes, although I doubt I'll play the part after the ring is destroyed any time soon. It is ok as it is and I "managed" to lose many knights on sorties and some mistakes. If you play more defensibly you might get even more knights as they are fairly needed in the south and east.

[Catfish]

No but I beat the crap out of Saruman and I guess that triggered it . Could've been turn 44.

No, that's not it. Do you have a saved game from just after the point where Mordor mobilises?

Only "fellow" I lost was Gimli, on his way to defend some farflung Southron city. He was stacked with a spearman and of course that spearman chose to defend instead . No hills in Harad means more casualties I guess. Seems Gimli is the coward here, spearmen always seemed to defend Pelargir instead also (main reason why I sent him there anyway). I wonder why?

Same defence value. After that it seems to depend largely on stack order, but it's not consistent.

So it is worthless for you, river or not. My main concern is that the player would actually suffer from events if he lost Osgiliath (siege towers, etc - see previous posts) so the only way to abandon it is to be forced out of there. Don't see that happening according to the spreadsheet unless you mass Olog hai and mumakil production...

Siege is reduced, but not eliminated. The Pelennor Fields wonder also becomes obsolete when Osgiliath is captured. It's not like there aren't incentives to hold Osgiliath. I have been forced out of the city. In earlier versions of the scenario I've also lost Minas Tirith. Except for the heroes (higher defence values), the unit stats were the same. Minas Tirith fell through sheer weight of numbers. Never mind the spreadsheet.

In the current version of the scenario it appears that Mordor's assault is simply incapable of taking either city in the middle part of the game. Minas Tirith is on a hill, and I don't want to change that either; it's meant to be nigh on unassailable. The assault must be powerful enough to take both cities. I didn't get much feedback on this part of the scenario, so I don't know how others fared in this area. I've also got to take into account your cash surplus and high research rate. Did you rush buy troops as well?

It says he's "loyal" in the foreign advisor tab, whatever that means.

Same as worshipful: the most favourable attitude.

Can't wait to see your changes...

You might have to wait. Civ2 isn't a priority. It's going to be a bit of trial and error to get the numbers right and my desire to play Civ2 is close to zero.

[the Monarch]

No, that's not it. Do you have a saved game from just after the point where Mordor mobilises?

Unfortunately no. I overwrote it. No fellowship casualties though. However I have a save every 10 turns from my earlier play.

I have been forced out of the city. In earlier versions of the scenario I've also lost Minas Tirith. Except for the heroes (higher defence values), the unit stats were the same.

Do you happen to have an older version? You say it was much tougher even though the heroes had more def points. I'm curios of the differences.

In the current version of the scenario it appears that Mordor's assault is simply incapable of taking either city in the middle part of the game.

Pretty much so (sigh).

Did you rush buy troops as well?

No, never before the ring was destroyed. Only in later stages when money was aplenty.

Same as worshipful: the most favourable attitude.

I guess that's not good at all for negotiation outcome...

You might have to wait. Civ2 isn't a priority. It's going to be a bit of trial and error to get the numbers right and my desire to play Civ2 is close to zero.

What do you keep yourself occupied with, these days, I wonder? Judging from this scenario it sounds noteworthy.