War of the Ring - beta

[Arthedain]

Don't watch the movie, read the books you lazy &/#"&%&/"#!

[techumseh]

So has anyone else been playing this? Any news on a final release or feedback?

I'm a little surprised that the comments have dropped off on this scenario. If it's not the best scenario so far, it is at least the most advanced. Catfish has pushed the boundaries with this one, for sure.

[GhostOfDisco]

Guess I'll have to play it again... (Never got Frodo to Mt. Doom, myabe I'll do better this time...)

[McMonkey]

Don't watch the movie, read the books you lazy &/#"&%&/"#!

But it will have lots of long words and no pictures

I used to be into fantasy when I was a teenager, Michael Moorcock, David Eddings, Dave Gemmill etc..., but as I have grown older I have become increasingly interested in history and things factual to the point that I rarely read fiction. That said though, at the moment I'm reading a copy of Louis de Bernieres' 'Birds Without Wings' I was given by a workmate. When I've finished that I may well dig out my old copy of LotR and gen up, the scenario does look worth the effort!

[Arthedain]

It sure is McMonkey. Besides LotR got a lore of thousand of years of history

[curtsibling]

The Middle Earth War mission is as follows!

Basically sneak the guy with the ring into the volcano, and at the same time,
try and keep everyone alive, and don't let smelly orcs take nice human cities.



The books are the kind of thing that you have to be into that genre to enjoy
them. If a person is not into almost biblical high fantasy, then he shall have
much trouble wading through the narrative, and also the songs! (tra-la!)

Personally, I read the books in the winter of each year, as they are suitable
for those cold and dark nights, where Tolkien's world seems much closer to
my Celt heart. In the autumn I tend to read over my Sherlock Holmes books.
And in the summer that is time for pulps and new books, and comics!

I tend to always be reading - One must keep the mental file cabinets full!
And the meaning of this blatant digression is that reading the LOTR books
is useful, even if just skimming over them in order to enjoy Catfish's scen!

[Catfish]

So has anyone else been playing this? Any news on a final release or feedback?

I've play-tested it once more since post #79. That was mainly to check the updated hero stats. I lowered the defence values of many to 4. That was the cause of the AI's timidity; HP, FP and cost did not figure in the equation. Fixes and updates came in dribs and drabs as I lost interest. It's been out for over a year now. Only feedback is what you see here. I'm done with it (barring any bug reports - and that's not very likely unless I play it myself). Didn't renovate Moria; too much fiddling, lack motivation.

I began to play it and it looked like an excellent scenario. However I don't really know the story that well and I was a bit unsure which direction to take and what I was supposed to be doing.

Did you read the Readme file? There's additional info in the Game Concepts section of the Civilopedia.

The Middle Earth War mission is as follows!

Basically sneak the guy with the ring into the volcano, and at the same time,
try and keep everyone alive, and don't let smelly orcs take nice human cities.

[curtsibling]

After playing it myself, I would say that it is more or less ready for release.
It is polished to a level far beyond most scenarios in any case, so I would
go for declaring it ready and basically completed in this current form.

I think the main thing is that there are more war buffs than fantasy people.
I found this out with Bitterfrost. I guess cannons and tanks rule the day...

[RobRoy]

After playing it myself, I would say that it is more or less ready for release.
It is polished to a level far beyond most scenarios in any case, so I would
go for declaring it ready and basically completed in this current form.

I think the main thing is that there are more war buffs than fantasy people.
I found this out with Bitterfrost. I guess cannons and tanks rule the day...

Oh, it's surely an excellent scenario! Probably one of the best I've ever seen. And it's one of the few that really utilizes the ToT features in a seamless, effective manner. (Actually, as I tried to deconstruct things after the fact, I couldn't even figure out how some of the ToT flags worked).

There's nothing much negative to say about the scenario, other than the obvious facts that: 1) it's on a platform that is dwindling (even the most die-hard Civ 2 fans will usually admit that the latest Civ 4 is pretty good, outside of its complexity and the resource requirements); and 2) Any quest or adventure game is going to have limited replayability, which is often a weakness with any Civ 2 scenario, to begin with.

That said, it took me quite awhile to figure out ways to win most of the time (still can't guarantee it, and generally can't do it without casualties among the Fellowship, and/or cities in the Shire). And that process was the most entertaining gaming experience I've had in quite awhile.

Thank you, Catfish! If there are any substantive changes, feel free to issue a final update. But otherwise, I'd agree and declare victory.

[Catfish]

After playing it myself, I would say that it is more or less ready for release.

Last update was 31/10/2009, version 1.01. That's the final. If any bugs come to my attention, I'll attempt to fix them. The main game files are a relatively small download; I kept the media separate for that reason. The first three media files on the download page were updated on 29/10.

I think the main thing is that there are more war buffs than fantasy people.
I found this out with Bitterfrost. I guess cannons and tanks rule the day...

Just not wars with monsters and spells. FYI, I uploaded a ToT version of Blackclove's Dungeon: Heroes of Beckhorn to CFC last month. Made some substantial changes to its appearance. Good scenario, albeit a little easy, even on the toughest difficulty level (the default).

(Actually, as I tried to deconstruct things after the fact, I couldn't even figure out how some of the ToT flags worked).

The flags are a bit of a spaghetti factory, so that's not surprising. The flag matrix is maintained using a spreadsheet. I also write events using a text editor with syntax highlighting; makes them easier to read.

(even the most die-hard Civ 2 fans will usually admit that the latest Civ 4 is pretty good, outside of its complexity and the resource requirements)

This might sound like heresy in this forum, but I think I prefer Civ4 over Civ2. It may be that I'm too familiar with the Civ2 engine. I'm banning myself from any Civ4 modding.

2) Any quest or adventure game is going to have limited replayability, which is often a weakness with any Civ 2 scenario, to begin with.

Yeah, I would've liked to have made the scenario more flexible, especially in terms of Fellowship movements (the events scripting and memory constraints are very limiting - even with ToT). Some pre-ToT scenarios combined groups of Fellowship members into single units to overcome scripting limitations. I wanted the player to be able to split the Fellowship and use them however they wished, while maintaining the Quest of Mt Doom as the chief objective. I think I achieved that to some extent. You can't track unit movements with the Civ2 engine, so I had to force some party members into key locations to trigger some events (Gollum's appearance is a good example). Each time you give the player more options, you've got to cover the additional outcomes with more events.

One of the reasons I decided to use a points victory, as opposed to ending the scenario with the destruction of the Ring, was to improve replayability (my best score was 68 objectives). For that, I needed to make the end game a fast-paced grab for points. I didn't want it to get bogged down in a big anti-climax. I don't know if I quite pulled that off.

That said, it took me quite awhile to figure out ways to win most of the time (still can't guarantee it, and generally can't do it without casualties among the Fellowship, and/or cities in the Shire). And that process was the most entertaining gaming experience I've had in quite awhile.

[techumseh]

It's first rate, Catfish. Thanks for finishing it.

[Catfish]

Your AVI file idea certainly helped. That was the best design tip I've seen in a few years.

[the Monarch]

Possible upgrades?

Hi there, Catfish.

I loved your scenario. It's one of the best out there and, by simply reading the readme I was persuaded to install (after a very long break) TOT on my comp. I know it's been a while since you released (the final?) version of WOTR and I only found out about it last week but I was so impressed that I played it twice in a row and have come up with a few comments of my own:
1) first I thought the Nazgul are very difficult to evade but on the third try and later on I managed to run for Bree and then Rivendell on the road asap. I sacrificed a few hobbits in front and at the rear of the main party. In one game all but one or two Nazguls appeared in front of Bree and, even though I lost many hobbits on defense all Nazguls were killed by Aragon and the rangers the next turn time and time again. I find it more important to have the Shire mobilization advance sooner than Bombardil which I never researched anyway (true, first time I had to abandon the game because I forgot to take the damn blades from barrow mount and the second time Sam barely made it alive out of there with the swords :P...).
- first time in Moria was piece of cake. I encountered the Balrog, got it down to 1hp by sacrificing Gandalf and finished him with Boromir. I only afterwards realized just how lucky I had been. I think Balrog is way to strong. His stats are the first thing I'd change. For several reasons: first, he's got a movement of 4, making him very hard to spot on time. Even if you try to run away, hobbits and Gimli have a movement of 3 so... Second, attacking him with Gandalf will result in Gandalf's death in 95% of the time, which is not really true as he killed the Balrog. Third, even if you knowingly sacrifice Gandalf, there's a huge chance you only damage the Balrog by 50% and no other Fellowship member would have the chance to do more damage than that anyway so you might end up losing many fellows in there. That would mean he generally escapes and Gandalf dies just to slow him off Did you really want that? And last but not least, I don't think there is much of a chance of you meeting the Balrog on Durin's Bridge where that 150% would count. All in all Moria seems a little too dangerous with the Balrog alone, let alone 2 trolls and half a dozen orcs. The trolls and orcs are ok though but imagine you lose Gandalf and Boromir and you damage Legolas (or even others) with no way to heal him in time. You'd end up spending loads of time in Moria under orc fire and probably only half of the fellowship will ever get out. I suggest lowering Balrog's def to 8. He still has better chance of defeating Gandalf both defending and attacking him. And both times I played he appeared right by the entrance in Moria, making the trip alot harder without Gandalf to defend against orcs & trolls

[the Monarch]

more feedback

3) The rest of the game is very well ballanced. Isengard is not hard to defeat but the first time it took forever to get entmoot tech. Pelargir is not in a good spot for defense but hit and run with knights works most of the time. I lost it the second game because I forgot to send in some hero there. Belfalas will eat your veteran spearmen like candy as they are crushed by black ships 50% of the time. An eagle there would help scout the sea in advance but not much. That's ok, you got to lose something too. All galleys are on scouting duty too, watching for corsairs. On the downside, Osgiliath is very easily defendable. Especially if you conduct sorties with knights and kill all orcs on open field. Denethor will despair if you lose Osgiliath and Boromir dies? I never got that message in either game and I guess it's a shame . I suggest placing one or more fortresses on the road to Minas Morgul so as to slow down mass killing of the poor orcs. Grond is great but it can't do much against 20 spearmen and the dead will finish it off. As it usually appears just after Frodo and Sam go down Cirith Ungol, I suggest some bonus for poor Sauron if you kill his toy. How about some Ologs or Mumakils? Osgiliath MUST fall
4) Shelob was shy against the "light of Aerendil" so Sam finished her of the first time. Not without fear on my behalf so that's ok too. I never encountered her the second time. I never encountered Gollum the first time on the other hand. Then again, the both of them might have been a bit different as Frodo wasn't veteran the first time and he usually isn't (even wolves kill the poor guy...). I find it easiest to go from the marshes to the safety of Cair Andros and from Osgiliath straight away to Cirith Ungol, clearing the way with knights and Rohirrim. The only problem is you can't make it from the other side of Cirith Ungol to Mount Doom in a single turn. Pausing on 164,164 or 165,165 might be the safest, isn't it? I sacrificed an eagle for that anyway and literrally slipped past the orcs and uruks. I guess Osgiliath should fall after Frodo goes down Cirith Ungol. I'm thinking a major offensive with or after Grond...

[the Monarch]

Graphic goodies

And now for some graphic talk.

First I thought no one can surpass Favoured Flight's Lord of the Rings trilogy for MGE in graphics and you proved me wrong . I was impressed and still am. I thought most of the graphics are splendid but, as I am driven by the urge to always improve on the scenarios I like best, I thought I'd do a little work and change something. Like minor adjustments to the cities, a few of the units (making Elessar look more kingly, Treebeard more of a tree, etc). I also have a minor suggestion I hope you won't kill me for . I absolutely loved Fav Flight's map in his Return of the King, particularly the mountains (Geo units). True, they are many unit slots wasted but I guess if you could make Barrow Down somehow change veteran status of the hobbits instead of upgrading them to other units... And I doubt you need two Gollums... Just make the first a missile unit. You lose him anyway after Cirith Ungol and I doubt you use him for any other attack. That would be 4 unit slots for mountains that would look great on your already smooth map. Hereare Favoured Flight's mountains which I coloured to fit Wotr mountains and all the other units I changd. I don't know how to edit out the shield and health bar of static units so maybe you could halp me on that. Here are also the new cities graphics I hope you like more.