War of the Ring - beta

[techumseh]

Mordor's mobilization

Having made several attempts to complete the quest, I've had argueably playable positions upset by the early mobilization of Mordor and it's allies. This soon overwhelms Gondor, leaving the completion of the quest virtually impossible and apparently futile. There's no time to complete the muster of Rohan, rouse the Ents, or pass the paths of the dead.

Returning to the Readme, I see that there's a trigger with a cumulative threshold, involving loss of members of the fellowship primarily, but also including killing of eye orcs on the main map.

Losing members of the Fellowship is almost inevitable, given the randomized threats which abound in the scenario. The Balrog, wolves along the way, etc. are unpredictable threats that require lots of luck as well as some skill to counter. Killing orcs is almost unavoidable if you want to mount any sort of active defense of the Anduin crossings, aside from adding to the fun.

Frodo and Aragorn are the only characters essential for victory, so their loss should certainly trigger Mordor's attack, if not the outright loss of the game.

In the book, it was Aragorn challenging Sauron using a palantir which triggered his premature attack. This took place after the defeat of Isengard, and just before the muster of Rohan and the passage of the Paths of the Dead. This was seen as a good thing, as Sauron had not yet completed his preparations.

I will argue that too many games come to a premature end due to random fellowship losses. In my latest game, I came out of Moria with Aragorn, Legolas, and the hobbits. I felt I'd done pretty well. With the resurrection of Gandalf I was keen to continue the quest. But by the time I was halfway down the Anduin, Minas Tirith had fallen, and a few turns later, most of Gondor had been overrun by the Haradrim.

Perhaps this is just a rationalization of my own poor play, but you might want to consider some other mobilization triggers, or simply set the existing threshold a bit higher. Otherwise, I'm thoroughly enjoying myself.

[Catfish]

Originally posted by techumseh
Returning to the Readme, I see that there's a trigger with a cumulative threshold, involving loss of members of the fellowship primarily, but also including killing of eye orcs on the main map.

Yes, a rather important piece of info, that. When I first added the Eye Orcs triggers, I had in mind that the early part of the game would be primarily about getting the Fellowship into position. If the Fellowship kept running into orcs, they were more likely to give the game away. Unfortunately, in Civ2's scripting I can't filter what units are involved in these encounters and in later versions of the scenario there were enough skirmishes going on pre-mobilisation to make it more likely to involve non-Fellowship units. As a result, I always concede these 2 points. If my method of play is any benchmark for success, then in fairness, I should remove these triggers.

Currently, it takes 5 points to trip Mordor's mobilisation flag. Even after giving away 2 points for the orcs, I very rarely reach that threshold before Mordor becomes mobilised automatically or without Frodo's demise (instantaneous mobilisation). Therefore, I don't want to cut the player too much slack in that area. I've removed those two Eye Orcs triggers and reduced Mordor's mobilisation threshold by 1 (uploaded new version).

Originally posted by techumseh
In the book, it was Aragorn challenging Sauron using a palantir which triggered his premature attack. This took place after the defeat of Isengard, and just before the muster of Rohan and the passage of the Paths of the Dead. This was seen as a good thing, as Sauron had not yet completed his preparations.

[Edit:

The Last Debate - The Return of the King
'I did so ere I rode from the Hornburg,' answered Aragorn. 'I deemed that the time was ripe, and that the Stone had come to me for just such a purpose. It was then ten days since the Ring-bearer went east from Rauros, and the Eye of Sauron, I thought, should be drawn out from his own land. Too seldom has he been challenged since he returned to his Tower. Though if I had foreseen how swift would be his onset in answer, maybe I should not have dared to show myself. Bare time was given me to come to your aid.'

Perhaps a good thing for the Ring-bearer moving into Mordor; not so great for Minas Tirith.]

I've thought about ways to simulate this, but figured it was simply too difficult to pull off economically. What I could look into is staggering Mordor's mobilisation reinforcements so that a really early attack would lack the serious siege equipment and elite soldiers (uruks and ologs), and an intermediate one would lack only one of these groups. I've got some events space, thanks to your AVI idea and now, two free Mordor flags.

[Edit: OK, I've staggered Mordor's mobilisation schedule. Some spoilers here. This doesn't affect Mordor's allies. If you mobilise Mordor early in the game you'll get attacked by batch 1, then later batch 2, and then batch 3, with some overlap. If you manage to delay Mordor's assault to the mid-part of the game, you'll be attacked by all 3 batches at once. Batch 1 consists of Eye Orcs, Trolls, Wolves, Wolf-riders and some one-off Mumaks. Many of those in batch 1 are destined for the Misty Mountains and Mirkwood areas. They are led by the Winged Nazgul Lord if he isn't still poking around in Eriador. Batch 2 consists of Uruk-hai and Catapults and batch 3: Olog-hai, Siege Towers and Grond. I've not tested this, but I imagine that if you set Mordor off early it's still going to be damned tough - and so it should be. All up it's exactly the same numbers as before redistributed temporally.]

Aside from the hit-or-miss aspect, with respect to early mobilisation, I think the scenario is a little too easy. The biggest problem is Gandalf the White. When he fortifies in Minas Tirith, the AI's siege of the city falls away badly. Some people might argue that's a good thing, but it removes any real challenge to the defence of Gondor. The scenario then boils down to how fast you can kill off Gandalf in Moria and research The White Rider. I've reduced his stats a little, so that once he's taken some damage, Mordor's units are more likely to attack.

[Boco]

Are his combat stats the only ones that influence AI aggression toward his square? Does his cost or role have any effect?

[Catfish]

Good question. I haven't tried other AI roles. I set his cost at 170 shields, the game's maximum, according to the notes in the rules file. I read somewhere (probably in one of the strategy forums) that the AI is more likely to home in on expensive units. Cost doesn't seem to make a difference here. Using a similar line of thought, I reduced the costs of some of the heavy hitting attackers. No difference. If Winged Nazgul wear him down, then the lesser guys will show more aggression.

I was play-testing the scenario not long after I wrote that and Gandalf the White was taken out by Grond whilst defending Minas Tirith. I guess he had it coming. I lost Frodo again, but managed to kill Sauron and destroy the Ring by storming Barad-dur. Got myself a marginal victory out of it. Here are my guys trying to escape Mordor before the whole landscape gets torn up. Prior to the final assault, the troops tasked themselves with beautifying Cirith Ungol and had the job done in no time at all.



[Edit: Uploaded a new version that fixes a bug with the staggered reinforcement schedule for Mordor - introduced in my last post. I knew I should've tested it first. I forgot the Continuous modifiers for the new flags. Duh! The last version would've been a breeze as half of Mordor's units would've been on holiday.]

[duke o' york]

Playing my first game at the very lowest level, I got all the hobbits to Rivendell, but kept getting messages that Frodo hadn't reached the city, and that search parties had been sent out for him. Is there a time limit for his arrival, because it didn't recognise his presence and insisted that the elf lord went to search for him?

You might need to look at this, because it could ruin the game for anyone who doesn't play at the recommended level. I wouldn't normally play at Chieftain, but given the experiences of players so far and the late hour.....

[GhostOfDisco]

Originally posted by duke o' york
Playing my first game at the very lowest level, I got all the hobbits to Rivendell, but kept getting messages that Frodo hadn't reached the city, and that search parties had been sent out for him. Is there a time limit for his arrival, because it didn't recognise his presence and insisted that the elf lord went to search for him?

You might need to look at this, because it could ruin the game for anyone who doesn't play at the recommended level. I wouldn't normally play at Chieftain, but given the experiences of players so far and the late hour.....

Yeah, I had that problem as well. Look for holes just outside the noted cities (Rivendall, Bree, etc.) you should be able to teleport at least one of your major characters to another map by sending the character to that square and pressing "N." Then, you should see a square nearby with what looks like an eye surrounding by rings or something. "Attack" that square, and you should get a text message, and possibly more, followed by a another hole that leads to the normal map. (Though, in some places such as, say, Moria, the pass of Cirith Ungol, etc., you have to go through a maze before appearing on the right side...)

(Did that make sense?)

[Elok]

Hmmm...I don't have TOT, but this looks good. Catfish, have you (or has anyone else) considered doing the War or the Jewels from the Silmarillion? It's been done in scenarios, but loath as I am to admit it, FW/MGE simply cannot model it accurately. The story relies too heavily on impassible terrain, hidden cities and small events--which would make it ideal for TOT. I'm sure you have NO desire to think about that after all the effort you've put into this, but I thought I'd throw it out there...

[duke o' york]

I have been having trouble with the eagles. I usually have the forest towns well fortified, so they're not really needed there. Then I send one eagle to Dale to help the defence out there - not that I really need it with all of the Dwarves who turn up. So, noting that the eagles have the helicopter flag, I tried sending them south to help out around Gondor. I lost one when I tried to send it across the falls (which made me laugh - great idea to have the boats destroyed by the falls, but an eagle!), then another when I sent it via Lorien to heal up. You can't heal helicopters in allied cities - this is entirely my fault for being so ignorant of the rules.

However, I'd be amazed to hear if anyone has managed to get the eagles south. I suppose it's possible if you use them to capture the enemy city northeast of Lorien, but I haven't tried that yet. Is it possible? They get to such a low health bar that it's easy for even the most useless orc to pick them off. Anyway, off to try again!

[Arthedain]

Ëlok: TBH I think the "Fall of Beleriand" scenario did make justice of the War of the Jewels. Since it's pretty much like tjhe LotR scenario; strategic warfare AND questing.. Ok it could be perfected, but I still think it's the best scenario covering the era..

[Catfish]

Originally posted by GhostOfDisco
Yeah, I had that problem as well.

Only a problem if you haven't read the Readme file: http://users.tpg.com.au/jpwbeest/fil...e.htm#Concepts.

Originally posted by duke o' york
Is there a time limit for his arrival, because it didn't recognise his presence and insisted that the elf lord went to search for him?

If Frodo hasn't dispatched the Rivendell trigger by turn 18, then you'll get the search party message in the following turn and the rest of the Fellowship will appear in turn 20. Glorfindel (the Elf-lord) will appear regardless of whether or not Frodo has arrived in Rivendell. I haven't added checks; that consumes precious events space. Doing so would probably require 2 double-trigger (@AND) events. That's the equivalent of 3 extra events over and above what I already have - and that's essentially just so I can have a more fitting text message if Frodo gets lucky running the gauntlet on the East-West Road.

Originally posted by Elok
Catfish, have you (or has anyone else) considered doing the War or the Jewels from the Silmarillion?

Me, no.

Originally posted by duke o' york
Then I send one eagle to Dale to help the defence out there - not that I really need it with all of the Dwarves who turn up.

Certainly not at Chieftain level anyway.

Originally posted by duke o' york
I lost one when I tried to send it across the falls (which made me laugh - great idea to have the boats destroyed by the falls, but an eagle!)

The Falls of Rauros is a Barbarian city that contains an unbeatable unit (Mount Doom actually). That's in the Readme doc as well. You won't do that again in a hurry, will you?

Originally posted by duke o' york
You can't heal helicopters in allied cities - this is entirely my fault for being so ignorant of the rules.

No, but they can be completely healed with a turn spent in Rhosgobel (Airport) or a dwelling (Air Base).

Originally posted by duke o' york
However, I'd be amazed to hear if anyone has managed to get the eagles south.

Look at the screenshot in my last post and be amazed. Have them attack from the safety of impassable terrain or water, don't leave them in areas where they are vulnerable to ground attack. I'm loath to make them more powerful because of the amount of damage they can do already.

[duke o' york]

Well now I've got an idea of what's going on I'm moving off Chieftain for good.

In your honour (and my defence of playing at Chieftain), this was the first time I've used ToT for years, and I only played it about twice then. Owned it for ages, but haven't loaded it onto my new computer until this week. I love the scenario, and even though I'm not a huge Tolkien fan (had to use wikipedia to work out which way to send Sam and Frodo after the boat ride), the screenshots and this thread especially inspired me.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Arthedain
Ëlok: TBH I think the "Fall of Beleriand" scenario did make justice of the War of the Jewels. Since it's pretty much like tjhe LotR scenario; strategic warfare AND questing.. Ok it could be perfected, but I still think it's the best scenario covering the era..

Huh. Is that TOT?

[Arthedain]

That's MGE Allthough I'm working on a ToT conversion.... If you even could call it working.. Don't have much time for Civ2 nowadays..

[curtsibling]

So has anyone else been playing this? Any news on a final release or feedback?

[McMonkey]

I began to play it and it looked like an excellent scenario. However I don't really know the story that well and I was a bit unsure which direction to take and what I was supposed to be doing. Hopefully I can borrow the films from someone and get a better idea of whats going on. I did see them at the cinema a few years back and many years ago I read the book but my memory of events is pretty fragmented and hazy! A crap excuse for my laziness I know, but its the only one I've got