War of the Ring - beta

[Catfish]

Originally posted by Mercator
Excellent! I will definitely play this before I die.

You've got the date set and everything planned?

Originally posted by Mercator
I find that bug with the flags intriguing, though. Do you know why it's happening too? I may have to investigate further.

No, I only know as much as I've stated on the WotR download page. I used the attached events file to test it in the Original game with the Romans, Mongols and Japanese. I took advantage of the bug in WotR when I remapped the events flags.

@techumseh: Re: sounds.

The orcs sound is a rip from the orc fight at Cirith Ungol in The Return of the King. The breathing/grunting sounds OK to me. If I hear something better, I'll change it, but I'm not about to start ripping and mixing sounds again. The 'cat meow' at the end of the cavalry sound is a bloke yelling in the background - clear to my ears on my system. I've removed it (updated the download; the individual file can be downloaded here for a short time). Unless there are technical glitches or major irritations, changing the soundset is not a priority. Apart from repetition and the ****e 8-bit, 22 kHz quality, does anyone else have any problems with the sounds?

[Mercator]

Originally posted by Catfish
You've got the date set and everything planned?

The only thing I've got planned is not dying for the next 50+ years.

No, I only know as much as I've stated on the WotR download page. I used the attached events file to test it in the Original game with the Romans, Mongols and Japanese. I took advantage of the bug in WotR when I remapped the events flags.

Thanks for that test file. I found the problem. Even more, I found a workaround too. That does require an extra event, though.

Let's start at the beginning:

• Events are executed at the start of each turn
• There are 8 * 32 flags, flags 0 to 31 for each civ.
• Here we arrive at our first problem: Barbarian flags can be set, but they can't actually be checked for. CheckFlag doesn't work with Barbarian flags.
• By default, flags are only set for one turn. If you want them to last longer, you need to use the Continuous modifier.
• Now we arrive at our second problem: the continuous modifier is only stored once for each set of flags. That is, flag 0 of all civs share one continuous state, flag 1 another, etc. So you can't have flag 0 of the Romans not be continuous, and have flag 0 of the Japanese be continuous at the same time. In fact, if you set flag X for multiple civilizations in separate events, the last event to be triggered will determine the continuous state, depending on whether it used the Continuous modifier or not.
• The most important problem, however, is this: not only is the continuous modifier ignored when you clear a flag (off is the default state, so there's nothing to remember). When you clear a flag, the continuous state is reset along with it.

So that is what is happening. You switch a flag for one civ off, which also clears the continuous state. The other civs' flags are still set at this point, but since the continuous state is cleared, they too are reset the next turn.

And now for the workaround... While you can't check for barbarian flags, you can still set them. If you follow the event in which you clear flag X with an event where you set that same flag X for the Barbarians (using the Continuous modifier), the continuous state is saved and the other civs don't lose their flag X.

I've attached your test events file again, but with one extra event added at the end that fixes the bug.

You seem to have little space left for events, so I don't know whether you can restore all the flags again, but you might be able to save some. And you might be able to add the workaround to some existing events, so you don't lose the space.

[Catfish]

Originally posted by Mercator
I found the problem. Even more, I found a workaround too.

Originally posted by Mercator
Now we arrive at our second problem: the continuous modifier is only stored once for each set of flags.

Yeah, it's a bit short-sighted.

Originally posted by Mercator
And now for the workaround... While you can't check for barbarian flags, you can still set them. If you follow the event in which you clear flag X with an event where you set that same flag X for the Barbarians (using the Continuous modifier), the continuous state is saved and the other civs don't lose their flag X.

Excellent idea. Always good to have more options.

Originally posted by Mercator
You seem to have little space left for events, so I don't know whether you can restore all the flags again, but you might be able to save some. And you might be able to add the workaround to some existing events, so you don't lose the space.

The events file is full; I need space for 16 Delayed events. Surprisingly, I was able to remap the events flags matrix with only slight loss. It left 2 flags without a home (Mordor and Isengard are full). I tossed out one fairly lame event (well, 2 in combo) that used one. The other flag I moved to an unused slot that gets checked under the Everybody umbrella in the early part of the scenario. The relocated flag only becomes functional in the later part of the scenario. There's no conflict. So everything should be sweet without extra Barbarian flag events. There are a total of 91 events flags in use in the current version of WotR. Before I reassigned the flags, the bug affected 19 of them.

[Edit: It just occurred to me that I have two events that turn on flags for a single turn (ie, no Continuous modifier). Those flags are shared by other tribes for which the Continuous modifier is applied. Potentially, I could have flags that were meant to be switched on for a single turn made continuous by other Flag action events. Will find a workaround and upload.]

I've made a few changes to my version of the scenario to make it a little easier. I'll see if I can get around to testing it shortly. If the changes pass muster, I'll upload it.

[techumseh]

Originally posted by Catfish Unless there are technical glitches or major irritations, changing the soundset is not a priority.

Not to worry, that was more an attempt a humour than a criticism. I really did check on my cat several times.

I do have a couple of observations that you might find useful, though.

1. My fellowship units breezed through Moria, without any real problem. The Balrog appeared once, but didn't attack a fortified Gandalf, who covered the movements of the rest. The route to the Bridge of Khazad-dum is simple and direct. Few orcs appeared and were easily dispatched.

2. The fellowship had only arrived at Rauros [b]after[b/] the launch of Mordor's main attack and after the fall of Helm's Deep. Given normal delays caused by occasional injured units, it should be possible to have fellowship units in place to help defend Helm's Deep and Minas Tirith, and to have Frodo at or near Minas Morgul.

I'm not sure of the trigger for the main attack by Mordor, so it may be due to my ignorance or poor play.

[Catfish]

Originally posted by techumseh
1. My fellowship units breezed through Moria, without any real problem. The Balrog appeared once, but didn't attack a fortified Gandalf, who covered the movements of the rest.

I'm not sure whether that's due to Gandalf's defence total or just the randomness of the AI. The Balrog will attack a fortified Gandalf on Durin's Bridge (+150% defensive bonus). I may need to investigate again. A very long time ago I ran some pretty comprehensive tests with Gandalf vs The Balrog, starting with Boco's Civ2 Combat Probability Calculator and then moving on to real-game simulations. Their stats haven't changed since. The Balrog is quite capable of taking down half the party. What level of difficulty are you playing?

Originally posted by techumseh
The route to the Bridge of Khazad-dum is simple and direct. Few orcs appeared and were easily dispatched.

Yes, I don't want a maze and I don't want that section to drag. In some games I've been bogged down in Moria, unable to get out as Fellowship members were continually weakened by orc attacks - I guess that's what happened to Arthedain. In others, I've breezed through. I guess it depends on the random movements of the AI to some degree. There's always someone who's in need of healing at Lorien. I upgraded Boromir, Legolas and Gimli to veterans in the latest version. That makes a difference. Not enough orcs? That can be remedied.

Originally posted by techumseh
2. The fellowship had only arrived at Rauros [b]after[b/] the launch of Mordor's main attack and after the fall of Helm's Deep. Given normal delays caused by occasional injured units, it should be possible to have fellowship units in place to help defend Helm's Deep and Minas Tirith, and to have Frodo at or near Minas Morgul.

It is, but it's difficult. I usually get Frodo into Cirith Ungol by around turn 55. It's simple for me to delay Isengard's and Mordor's main assaults in events. If I delay Mordor's assault for too long, the game becomes less of a challenge. It certainly plays a lot differently to Harlan's LotR scenario, which was on for young and old from the start.

In what turn did Helm's Deep fall? I've been tweaking Isengard's mobilisation and troop numbers, as well as Rohan's defenders, to get that right.

I should have another version up in about half an hour; mainly to fix the last of the events flags bugs (see edit in previous post).

[Arthedain]

Originally posted by Catfish
I guess that's what happened to Arthedain.

In what turn did Helm's Deep fall?

That's exactly what happened to me, and I couldn't heal them because the attacks continued.
TBH I don't remember on what turn Helm's Deep fell, but it was around the time I was in Lorien (still had Legolas and Gimli fighting for their lives in Moria).

[Catfish]

And I just added some more orcs - only a few . With Boromir, Legolas and Gimli starting the scenario as veterans, it should be a little easier. I uploaded another version about 5 minutes ago.

[Mercator]

Originally posted by Catfish
The events file is full; I need space for 16 Delayed events.

Yeah, I wasn't sure whether the remaining heap space you mentioned was before or after taking the delayed events into account.

(...) There's no conflict. So everything should be sweet without extra Barbarian flag events.

[Boco]

This is great news to read! Thanks for starting the test, Catfish. Haven't seen so much adrenalin on a beta since 2nd Front. Some day before Merc dies, I'll try it out.

No Fairline, Bocoette has not yet arrived, but Mom has an incredible nesting instinct that is sucking up all my spare time.

[Catfish]

Originally posted by Boco
Thanks for starting the test, Catfish.

I didn't. I never intended to post here. Consider me semi-retired from Civ2.

Originally posted by Boco
Haven't seen so much adrenalin on a beta since 2nd Front.

Where?

[Arthedain]

Just replayed with the lates version and got to turn 54. Still can't pass the marshes. Otherwise all is going well (kinda hard to break Isengard but I was close to getting entmoot). I know I said I'd write more details but I'm in no mood. Spending all this time and still i can't dodge the Nazguls at the exact same spot. Was going through the western parts of the marshes this time, and there's no wholes there :S Oh well.. If they didn't get frodo there I guess they'd get him in Ithilien anyways.

[our_man]

I've been lulled out of temporary retirement to give this a spin - finals be damned! It's excellent. However, I think it's slightly too hard, particularly the ring quest. I've gotten Frodo as far down as (152,158) twice by around turn 55, yet there seems to be no way of sneaking past the huge forces of Sauron to get into Mordor. As soon as Frodo and crew pop their heads out of that final hole in the swamps to make a break for it they are killed.

[curtsibling]

It's a pretty hard scenario - Such an awesome work - !

Time for another go....I will try to survive once more!

[Catfish]

Originally posted by Arthedain
Just replayed with the lates version and got to turn 54. Still can't pass the marshes.

I'll have to figure out why that is. It's hardly a fair outcome, as it's nigh on impossible to avoid them if they're heading that way. Usually I'm through the marshes by that stage, so maybe they hit that area later on. I'll look at the effect of stacking Rangers of Ithilien and Archers in Cair Andros; it may drive more Winged Nazgul northwards.

Originally posted by Arthedain
Otherwise all is going well (kinda hard to break Isengard but I was close to getting entmoot).

Just one tip on getting critical techs when you want them: adjust your tax rate depending on availability. Build up a cash surplus in slow periods; when something like The White Rider or Entmoot comes along, ramp up research.

Originally posted by Arthedain
I know I said I'd write more details but I'm in no mood.

Sorry.

Originally posted by Arthedain
Oh well.. If they didn't get frodo there I guess they'd get him in Ithilien anyways.

Once you get them to Ithilien, it's a pretty safe path to Cirith Ungol, providing you still hold Cair Andros. Shelob is a different story. In some play-tests I've picked Frodo and company up in a galley and had him sail to Cair Andros, although more often it's all hands on deck at Pelargir.

Originally posted by our_man
As soon as Frodo and crew pop their heads out of that final hole in the swamps to make a break for it they are killed.

The Dead Marshes seem to be aptly named for you guys. In my recent play-tests, I've run into the odd Easterling, but more frequently no-one at all. At one stage I thought about moving the entire marsh area to one of the secondary maps. Maybe I could give Frodo/Sam/Gollum native transport to this map (that means they don’t need a transporter to access it) in between the Emyn Muil and Cirith Ungol triggers. I'd have to shuffle my events and see what terrain slots I've got available; I've stretched ToT's resources to the limit in this scenario.

Originally posted by our_man
However, I think it's slightly too hard, particularly the ring quest.

I'm tending to think that way. I consider myself only a mediocre Civ2 player, so my fear was that the scenario would be too easy for some of you hard-core types. I've tweaked the scenario to make it easier, but I'll keep tweaking until it burns me out. It's best played at the default level of difficulty because of the way Saruman employs his spies, so I'll be working on balancing that one.

I'm in a quandary over Moria. Too hard or too easy? Does it need to be expanded a little? Is the Balrog shy? Is the Balrog too tough? If the party spends too many resources in Moria (members and time), then there might be a better payoff taking another route and just sending in Gandalf.

Thanks for the input, guys – well, sort of, it means more work for me.

I won't be working on it tonight; I'm off to see Carcass on their reunion tour.

[our_man]

In my game there seemed to be a constant stream of Easterlings descending down the road running just outside Mordor to join the assault on Osgiliath. There were also a few trolls and other nefarious beings on this route too. To use an analogy, it was like trying to pick the right time to cross a road with lots of traffic, and despite looking both left and right to make sure the coast was clear, Frodo et al got splattered.

I just wanted to tear my hair out... I had micromanaged my cities and research to the absolute limit to hold off the advance of Sauron until Frodo dropped off his burden. To be so near and yet so far...

Enough with my sour grapes! On to something I really liked about this scenario that I thought was pretty unique. It's great that the player gets to have a pivotal role in holding off Saruman's forces from Rohan. If you don't send up any reinforcements Rohan's pretty much screwed. The hit-and-run nature of the fight up here was pretty special - I don't think there's any other scenario where using your allies cities to heal units before heading out for another sortie is so essential.