Ancient Empires #2

[Peaster]

c) IIRC, in SP, barbs have really weak defenses (regardless of their stats) and can hardly defeat any defended city ... until a certain date, or until you build 7 cities, or.... well I don't really remember exactly.

Has anyone lost a defended city yet in this PBEM ?

d) You'd only trade 1 van + 1 boat per turn.. not the whole chain. I've hardly ever played MP online, but AFAIK you can give units away in the field or the sea (not just in cities) and civ2dip just simulates that. IMO the technique is not worse than ship-chaining.

I played in one PBEM where chaining was illegal, but most civvers seem to accept it. IIRC trading units has been legal in the 3-4 PBEMs I've played, but I wouldn't insist on it.

Egypt: the usual
Persia: Sinbad finds 500g for more city walls
Greece: the usual

[RobRoy]

Minoans: Mysterious force damaged, but didn't kill a Minoan unit in Anatolia; recuperating now. Macedonian horde mostly vanished...logical though, since no city is nearby anymore.

Hittites: Gifted last two techs to Egypt. Sea Peoples sighted in southeast Anatolia.

Originally posted by Peaster
Has anyone lost a defended city yet in this PBEM ?

Platy, didn't you lose some cities? Were they defended by units? or open? If units, what kind? Veteran? Fortified? What kind of terrain?

Originally posted by Peaster
d) You'd only trade 1 van + 1 boat per turn.. not the whole chain. I've hardly ever played MP online, but AFAIK you can give units away in the field or the sea (not just in cities) and civ2dip just simulates that....
...IIRC trading units has been legal in the 3-4 PBEMs I've played, but I wouldn't insist on it.

Ship chaining doesn't bother me in the least. Unit gifts, I'm a bit leary of, since they seem quite exploitable. But you're right, you can give away almost anything in a regular MP session via the F3 screen. One of my core reservations about both tools and exploits is that they are liable to suck away precious RL time, while diminishing "fun". If I understand your example correctly, virtually every turn you'd have to be communicating various details about which ships/vans to gift, when, where, etc. And the other player would presumably have to respond in a timely fashion. Then both players would have to initiate their multiple Civ2Dip transactions (which take place over several turns, if I understood correctly), and monitor previous turns transactions. All this before one's turn can commence. Sounds like a violation of the K.I.S.S. principle, to me But, yeah, some in-game tests can't hurt.

What's the status with ST? Is he still on vacation? I noticed he posted a turn in the other game thread.

Platypus, are you following the discussion we're having about Bronze Working and Navigation. If you continue to hunt goody huts at this point, you're liable to acquire one of those techs, which will diminish the value of your trade. If you don't mind, go right ahead (and share the subsequent techs with us. In any event, confirm when you're ready to receive the last two techs I've been spreading around (Battering Ram and Improved Harness). I may have already gifted one, but not both, I suspect. If you're trying to avoid the trade diminishing techs, you'll need to set your science research to 0, first.

Anyway, Platy, your Civs are up!

[Addled Platypus]

Babs lost three cities, at the time only had skirmers to build for defense, since the tech gifts, I have been doing much better for defense. Looks like along battle of attrition with the barbs

Assy off another barb unit abd have peace ttreaty with egypt

will set to science 0 next turn

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=22570_sa_b3180.hot

[SlowThinker]

I will have problems with an access to internet at least next two weeks, and then I may still have problems with the 24h limit. Anyway until now the game was 60% fun and 40% duty, and this would shift towards duty very likely.
So I would prefer that somebody else takes both Greeks and Persians not only provisionaly.

Weak barbs when defending - Greeks had problems to kill barbs (also if stats were advantageous), so I stopped my tries in order not to make vet barbs.
But an archer in vanilla civ has defense 1, maybe this rule applies to more units in Seeds scenario...

Unit exchange via F3 - it is forbidden in Seeds#1, because of teleporting. Personally I consider teleporting a very ugly thing, some unnatural exploits are possible. (Didn't somebody say it makes NONE units? It would make things even worse.)

RobRoy wrote:
>If I understand your example correctly, virtually every turn you'd have to be communicating various details about which ships/vans to gift, when, where, etc.

This is how Seeds#1 works. There were turns I exchanged 10-20 e-mails.
It is not so bad. In the beginning I considered the 72h limit too log, but I am accustomed now.

[ISeeALL]

Hi guys,
I would like to play for some civ(s) in this PBEM game. Is some nation free at the moment?

[Peaster]

ISeeAll: Welcome!! This game is just a test, but you are welcome to join in. You can have Persia and Greece if you want a challenge. They might not be much fun, since the previous player (ST) was testing to see if they could survive without tech trades/etc, and these civs both are swimming in barbs. But IMO if you want them, you could forget ST's test, accept tech gifts from other civs, and have better chances.

I hope we will start a "real game" soon. Then you'll have some better choices of starting civ.

RobRoy and Platy - How much longer shall we test?

----------------------------------------------------

Egypt: I was careless to accept IH and BRam; the ONLY options left for Egypt's next tech were BW and Nav. Contacted Minos with F3, but they declared war again before I could even speak. I guess I won't try again unless Minos is Worshipful.

Persia and Greece: So, ST has dumped his experiments on me, huh ? IMO Persia will survive, since she has approx 600g for more city walls. But new techs (eg Monarchy) are MANY turns away, so Persia has few interesting options.

It seems Greece may survive with only skirmishers to defend, but I am not sure why/how. Platypus did not say whether he lost any defended cities. I played ahead a turn - Egypt loses a defended city to sea peoples. So, I guess the barbs are not entirely toothless against our cities.

[RobRoy]

ISeeAll: Welcome, welcome. Yes, the Persians/Greek combo would be the best for now, if you're up to it. If they don't work out, you can take either the Hittites, the Minoans, or the Assyrians (if Platy doesn't mind). But your fate seems to lie with Persian/Greece since your message follows ST's message saying he'd like to withdraw. Persia actually has an advantage now...several civs have stopped hunting the remaining goody huts (mostly in the southern Arabian desert, some in Libya, probably) to avoid acquiring techs that decreases trade efficiency. Persia never gets techs from huts, so they don't need to worry about that. I'll trade maps and gift all the shared techs, but one, to Greece and Persia this evening when I move, unless you tell me otherwise. When you move, set the tech rate to zero, if you also want to try to avoid getting the Bronze Working tech (Persia doesn't have to worry about Navigation, by the way). Else you'll end up like Egypt. I'll do the one remaining tech the turn after.

Originally posted by Peaster
Egypt: I was careless to accept IH and BRam; the ONLY options left for Egypt's next tech were BW and Nav.

Peaster, how important is the tech screwup to you? We could replay, I guess? Or perhaps I could replicate everyone's turns tonight, if no one is too concerned about privacy? I don't know if editing would work, since you'd be trying to set the goal to nothing. And didn't I warn you (a couple of times) about setting your tech research to zero? Guess you still get to hunt huts. And the Minoans ARE worshipful! I suspect it's related to perceived strengths - their unit/city ratio on YOUR continent is basically infinite, while your ratio is finite on your continent but zero on theirs. Since they are vastly more powerful than you they declare war at every opportunity. Give me two turns to reinstate peace (again). Did you want something from them, though? 'Cause they can initiate conversations without war being declared.

Originally posted by SlowThinker
...So I would prefer that somebody else takes both Greeks and Persians not only provisionaly...

ST, sorry you're not having so much fun. In terms of the 24 hour limit. I'm liking it actually. So much so, I was thinking of proposing it for the "real" game, at least for these early years (if we can ever get seven, of course). I think anything to help the game move faster is highly desirable. And if your other game takes so much real life time, I think that's a strong argument that we should try to eliminate whatever is causing turns to take an undue amount of time (defined as anything more than half an hour, in my book). I suspect that might include limiting unit trading/gifting, and maybe some other features/exploits/strategies associated with Civ2Dip.

But I'm a bit confused about your statement that unit gifting via F3 was banned in Game#1, because the teleporting could be exploited. I don't really see the abusive possibilities you're talking about (my imagination may just be too limited), whereas I do see lots of possibilities to exploit gifted units that remain stationary. But, more fundamentally, are you saying that in Game#1 you HAVE been able to gift units via the F3 screen, during your own turn? We were surprised that we were able to get any unit gifting done at all (though that sporadically, and with occasional side effects). Or are you talking about conducting a MP session and gifting units in that context? If so, my recollection (may be flawed) was that the units remained in place. The more likely scenarios for teleportation happen when you demand a unit withdraw from a city radius or cancel an alliance - but again, this seems a relatively minor exploit to my unimaginative mind. But are these the F3 teleport exploits you're referring to, rather than unit gifting?

Originally posted by Peaster
RobRoy and Platy - How much longer shall we test?

Peaster and Platy (and ISeeAll), I'm having fun and I like a casual game better anyway. So I'd like to play around until we get seven. Plus, we still have some gray areas about barbie behavior, odd strengths/weaknesses, odd vanishings, etc. I'd like to play to the next level of land barbs, too, if possible, to see whether their behavior is much different. Since Pal is now unlikely, and ST is back to questionable, and Straybow has always been questionable, we're really only at Four. I haven't been very successful with any recruiting. Peaster, you want to advertise to some of the Evo types? Didn't I see you over there a few times? Or was that CivFanatics?

Originally posted by Peaster
It seems Greece may survive with only skirmishers to defend, but I am not sure why/how. Platypus did not say whether he lost any defended cities. I played ahead a turn - Egypt loses a defended city to sea peoples. So, I guess the barbs are not entirely toothless against our cities.

If there's a "early game" or "small civ" advantage to AI defenders or city defenders, it's probably a modifier. So a skirmisher, fortified(+50%), veteran(+50%), defending a river(+50%)/hill(+100%) defends with a 3.5. If the modifier helps, say doubles, the city defender (truly doubles the final number, not another +100%) than that might explain why Sparta still lives, while plain cities in Messepotamia are no more. There was also a third city in Greece that ST reported destroyed (don't know if/how defended). And, Peaster, didn't you report an Assyrian city vanished (presumably due to a Storm - a much stronger unit, admittedly)?

Of course, it could be something completely bizarre, like the barbies simply vanish before attacking a city defended by unit type X or strength Y, or other circumstances. But I also wonder if it could have something to do with this version, i.e., with wrath itself or the fact that barbs own the wonder that triples strenght against barbs. Maybe I'll try to play around with the non-wrath version this weekend to see if I notice any particularly impressive AI defenses against barbs.

[ISeeALL]

Originally posted by Peaster
ISeeAll: Welcome!! This game is just a test, but you are welcome to join in. You can have Persia and Greece if you want a challenge. They might not be much fun, since the previous player (ST) was testing to see if they could survive without tech trades/etc, and these civs both are swimming in barbs. But IMO if you want them, you could forget ST's test, accept tech gifts from other civs, and have better chances.

So, I guess I make my move when it comes to Persia, and then for Greece.

Those barbs near Greece look scary, but I hope if both cities produce those skirmishers continually, there is a good chance.

[RobRoy]

Minoans: gifted the shared techs to Greeks, except Horse Training. Traded maps. Couldn't contact the warlike Egyptians, as expected.

Hittites: gifted tech pool to Persia (except Horse Training), traded maps. Tried to trade maps with Egypt/Assyria/Babylon, but Babylon wasn't interested. Are they properly "worshipful" Platy?

Platy and Peaster, we should start thinking about borders between the Hittites and Egypt and Assyria. There's lots of land, of course, but we all have an interest in the Levant. I have something along the lines of Kull's EotBA scenario in mind for the Hittites, with the Egyptians, perhaps, not being so far north. Thoughts? Does Assyria feel a need for access to the Med? Or Babylon for that matter? The Hittites think it might be neat to be able to sail into the Persian Gulf and/or the Red Sea, but that may not jibe with y'all's priorities...

ISeeALL, let me know when/if you want Horse Training...i.e., do you want to try to avoid Bronze Working and/or Navigation? Platypus, you said next turn for Improved Harness, right? Which I interpreted as the 3160 B.C. turn. Remember to set your science rate to zero.

Originally posted by ISeeALL
So, I guess I make my move when it comes to Persia, and then for Greece.

Those barbs near Greece look scary, but I hope if both cities produce those skirmishers continually, there is a good chance.

Yep, they've been together because they follow each other in the turn sequence. With the tech gifts, you'll be able to produce better than skirmishers, now. However, the skirmisher in Sparta has been amazing us all with its longevity. Review the scenario rules.txt and events file (the pbem version), if you haven't already. If you're relatively new to the scenario, just ask questions - we don't bite...much. And play SP, if you'd like, for practice. We're doing hotseat, rather than a .net game, so the barbs work right. If you aren't familiar with the procedures, read back around page four or so and we have some posts that talk about mechanics.

Philosophies differ on dealing with these barbs. Egypt and Assyrian did well with an offensive strategy once they had Early Chariots and Ladder Towers. I've been using an avoidance (don't build cities, don't give 'em targets) and defensive strategy (when I do build, river/hills are nice), which may have helped my hordes disappear sooner than most (but that could be luck, too, or some part of the barb algorithm we don't understand). Persia looks okay to me. But Greece is behind the curve: you're money is limited, but your Palace Guard units are nearly invincible at this stage. For the Greeks, I'd just build a Spearman or two in Sparta, let the horde spend itself, and focus on some settlers, ships, and caravans. Once Greece gets beyond the barbs, you and Minos can talk about lots of things. Persia is more interested in Platypus' civs, but the Hittites did make contact when they were hut hunting. Don't forget, the Jason Spearman is still available...might be easier for the Persians to get the gold, though, than the Greeks.

Platy, you're up with Babs and Assyrians. ISeeALL, Peaster will do Egypt after Plat. Then you download his file, do the Persian and Greeks and upload at the end of the Greeks turn.

[Addled Platypus]

I am doing 4 civs?

np

just want to make sure

[Addled Platypus]

Bab/Assy done

forgot about techs

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=22570_sa_b3170.hot

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by Platypus Rex
I am doing 4 civs?

np

just want to make sure

hmmm?

No, you do the Babs and Assyrians.

Then Peaster will do Egypt.

Then ISeeALL will do Persia and Greece.

Then I will do Minoans and Hittites.

etc. until we get new/returning players.

I assume your "forgot about techs" comment means don't gift Improved Harness this turn?

[Peaster]

Originally posted by RobRoy

a) We could replay, I guess?

b) And didn't I warn you (a couple of times) about setting your tech research to zero?

c) And the Minoans ARE worshipful! I suspect it's related to perceived strengths - their unit/city ratio on YOUR continent is basically infinite, while your ratio is finite on your continent but zero on theirs. Since they are vastly more powerful than you they declare war at every opportunity.

d) Did you want something from them, though? 'Cause they can initiate conversations without war being declared.

a) Nahhh... let's play on. We've gotta live with mistakes like that, and I don't take this game seriously anyway.

b) You did, but I didn't get it. Research at zero does what .... prevents your civ from starting on a new tech, until you get better pre-reqs ? And I thought you were the anti-exploit guy !

c) According to Egypt's F3 screen, the Minoans are only "Receptive" (and IIRC this has been true for a few turns). Pls check this next Minoan turn by clicking F3, then "set attitude".

But you may be right about the ratios, etc... I don't know anything about AI psychology.

d) No, I didn't want anything ... I was going to offer you some tech. Just experimenting, really.

e) ST....24 hour limit .... for the "real" game... anything to help the game move faster is highly desirable.

f) But, more fundamentally, are you saying that in Game#1 you HAVE been able to gift units via the F3 screen, during your own turn? .... Or are you talking about conducting a MP session and gifting units in that context? ... cancel an alliance - but again, this seems a relatively minor exploit to my unimaginative mind. But are these the F3 teleport exploits you're referring to, rather than unit gifting?

g) Peaster and Platy (and ISeeAll), I'm having fun and I like a casual game better anyway. So I'd like to play around until we get seven. Plus, we still have some gray areas about barbie behavior, odd strengths/weaknesses, odd vanishings, etc. I'd like to play to the next level of land barbs, too, if possible, to see whether their behavior is much different. Since Pal is now unlikely, and ST is back to questionable, and Straybow has always been questionable, we're really only at Four. I haven't been very successful with any recruiting. Peaster, you want to advertise to some of the Evo types? Didn't I see you over there a few times? Or was that CivFanatics?

h) If there's a "early game" or "small civ" advantage to AI defenders or city defenders, it's probably a modifier....
And, Peaster, didn't you report an Assyrian city vanished (presumably due to a Storm - a much stronger unit, admittedly)?

e) I think ST wants a slow time limit especially for the early turns! Ideally, I'd like a fairly serious game with about one turnset per week. Maybe a 24hrs rule, but with generous extensions ?

The problem is often enforcement. Nobody wants to skip over another player's turn. Subbing seems like the best answer, but that has problems too.

f) Not sure if F3 gifting is illegal in Game #1, but AFAIK nobody has done it in any PBEM I've played, except this one. I suspect it'd be easier to recruit experienced players to a "civ2dip game" than a "F3 game" but await other opinions.

AFAIK MP sessions are legal in most PBEMs (since PBEMs are basicly simulations of MP games). But they are awkward, and are used mainly to fix odd problems (with rehoming units etc).

The Game #1 players seem to oppose teleporting in any form. I dunno - - we could discuss it.

g) I have also enjoyed this fast test game. But with all the experimenting, "cheating" and mistakes, I can't take it very seriously and can't promise that it will hold my interest much longer. I wouldn't mind giving Egypt to someone else, though, if people want to play further than I do.

I did advertise this game at EVO. I heard from Eurisko (who disappeared??) that EVO players don't like empire-building games. But my ad prompted them to start their own empire-building PBEM ("Hellas"). I kind of gave up on them after that. But of course they are still welcome here.

[Peaster]

h) I think the Apolyton GL has a barbarian thread that explains the game mechanics for SP. Haven't checked, but IIRC the attack-defense rules for barbs are pretty simple (eg no modifiers). No idea if it applies to MP.

Yes, a defended Assyrian city was (probably) razed by a Storm unit - a barb unit, I suppose. I think Assyria had 7 cities then. Greece has only 2 cities, which may make a difference in the barb rules. Also, an Egyptian city was just razed by a Sea People unit. Egypt had 8 cities at that time. So, I am guessing that civ2 is "being nice" to the tiny Greek state.

Originally posted by RobRoy

Platy and Peaster, we should start thinking about borders between the Hittites and Egypt and Assyria.
.... Thoughts?

I think you may be taking this test game a bit too seriously!

Egypt: One city razed by a sea barb, which threatens a repeat performance. Two land barbs defeated.

ISeeAll: Your turn! As RobRoy said, you may want to avoid the BW and Nav techs, which may hurt your trade bonuses later. You have lots of new techs, and a chance to make completely new strategies. You should switch to monarchy ASAP [IIRC 3160 is an oedo year, so you should revolt now - but check this yourself].

Feel free to ask about any problems with hotseat mode, etc. Remember to ctrl-n for both Persia and Greece. Good luck !

[Bostero]

Steve, hello, remember me ????

well looks like we are moving to this forum for ever afther Evo database crashed. and many players dont like the new site.

hope we can share this site, and build a super-strong civ2 community