Ancient Empires #2

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by Peaster
...This time they did not instantly declare war, but they did instantly dissolve our alliance...It seems F3 isn't very reliable in a PBEM.

AAAARRRRGHH!

Naww, don't replay...just a test. But you cost me a slave and 5 turns toward a caravan delivery. Maybe war with you would be safer. On the plus side, some stray explorers are back at home. And the slave would've been one of "yours" anyway.

Yeah, at least for the Minoans, F3 isn't working out so well. Maybe if/when I put a city on the continent, the equations will change. Let's try a war state for awhile, though, now that our units aren't liable to attack each other accidently. Maybe gifts can be possible as, or after, peace agreements (if we stay worshipful). Refresh my memory on unit gifts in Civ2Dip - units stay in place and are still homed in their originating city? So that won't really help with caravan exchanges, will it?

Minoans: Reposition units, once again. Sea People swarming all around, but seem attracted to Palace Guard cities, not weak ones. Still got one slave.

Hittites: Latest Horde inching a few more units toward Kussara (now reasonably defended), killed a BI. Sea People wandering toward Guard. Map trades, except for non-worshipful Babs. Found a stray barb leader = Christmas!

You're up Platy, both Babs and Assyrians, until further notice, please.

[Peaster]

Originally posted by RobRoy

But you cost me a slave and 5 turns toward a caravan delivery. Maybe war with you would be safer.

Hey ! Don't blame it on me ! All I did was hit F3. It was the Minoans (AI) who declared war twice and broke the alliance. ....

Let's try a war state for awhile, though, now that our units aren't liable to attack each other accidently.

The AI dissolved the alliance, but we are at still peace AFAIK. If you prefer war, I can tap F3 again.

Maybe gifts can be possible as, or after, peace agreements (if we stay worshipful). Refresh my memory on unit gifts in Civ2Dip - units stay in place and are still homed in their originating city? So that won't really help with caravan exchanges, will it?

With civ2dip, gifts are possible regardless of peace/war etc. The unit stays in place for approx 1 turn (until it is unfrozen) and is not rehomed.

For army units there is a slight bug - the unit does not cost shield support from any city. The Game #1 rule is that you cannot exploit that (this usually means the unit should be rehomed ASAP).

Civ2dip is great for caravans. Example: I just made a van in Heliopolis which I want to send to Knossos, but I don't have enough boats for a ship chain - just one. I'd like to give you the boat + van, somewhere in the sea, maybe halfway to Minos. Then you ship-chain it almost to Knossos and give it back to me. I deliver the van, still homed to Heliopolis, and give you a cut (20% is normal in Game #1).

For vans, Game #1 players think it is a GOOD thing that they are not rehomed by civ2dip. But I guess we are still deciding about that for Game #2.

Minoans: Still got one slave.

I thought you had about 6-8 slaves... what happened to the rest ?

[Addled Platypus]

slave market crashed

[Addled Platypus]

Babs still holding, maybe ten more units till they are all gone

Assy eliminate 1 Barb unit, many more to go

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=22570_sa_b3130.hot

[Peaster]

Egypt: A third veteran skirmisher died attacking the nasty Sea Barb that razed Tunis a few turns ago. But this weakened the Barb to about 50%, enough that a vet Chariot I could finish it off. Luckily the Barb was on grassland, or the Egyptian strategy probably would have failed.

Two barbs were defeated routinely in the desert. Despite 2-3 losses per turn, this horde is not going away.

No F3 this turn. But AFTER I saved, I tried it with the Minoans again, and got the usual declaration of war.

[ISeeALL]

A few advancing barbs killed.

[Straybow]

I'm still interested in a game, but still dubious about Wrath.

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by Peaster
Civ2dip is great for caravans. Example: I just made a van in Heliopolis which I want to send to Knossos, but I don't have enough boats for a ship chain - just one. I'd like to give you the boat + van, somewhere in the sea, maybe halfway to Minos. Then you ship-chain it almost to Knossos and give it back to me. I deliver the van, still homed to Heliopolis, and give you a cut (20% is normal in Game #1).

For vans, Game #1 players think it is a GOOD thing that they are not rehomed by civ2dip. But I guess we are still deciding about that for Game #2.

I thought you had about 6-8 slaves... what happened to the rest ?

Give the Minoans another few turns, and they'll be ready for some trade exploits. 20% strikes me as low but we're playing with concepts and mechanics. The chain being formed is from Crete to Tyre, so sail due north, then west. Kydonia should be a better target than Knossos, unless demanded, but please wait 2-3 turns. I'll probably mirror some of what Minoans do with Egyptians with the Hittites. Hittite Tyre might also be a good trade target, possible ongoing road bonus, but won't get the one-time 2 continent bonus. Arrange an F3 war with Minoans next turn, I want to see if peace deals or post-peace negoriations could include unit gifts.

Lotsa slaves, just meant Minoans were still able to conduct one slave raid last turn, even though alliance cancellation "robbed me" of one of "your" red warriors (i.e., would've been two, otherwise).

Minoans: Kydonia, facing several Sea Peoples, but reasonably defended. Did a few cheating peeks ahead and the un-walled, unfortified Guard always weathered the Sea Peoples with minimal damage. =Minoan AI is definitely still getting a boost vs barbs.

Hittites: Map trades except non-worshipful Babs. Kussara's horde advancing, but not too effectively; killed one BRam. Sea People look aimless, now.

Originally posted by Straybow
I'm still interested in a game, but still dubious about Wrath.

Straybow, glad to see you're still interested. Sounds like we have six, confirmed, then. Have you been following the thread? I rather thought Wrath was working out well...generally not as devestating as we thought. Different and challenging, though. And not affecting the Hittites and Minoans as harshly as we feared (Hittites have been quite fortunate, in fact, in our test, so far). Diplomacy has been a bit of an issue, though. What are your concerns about Wrath?

[Addled Platypus]

still getting the boot form the barb's, but alive and well as much as the Bab's can be

Assy's now getting more visitors without baskets

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=22570_sa_b3120.hot

[Peaster]

Welcome Straybow! As I see it, Wrath adds excitment to the game, and I guess this feature is attractive to the players. But I could play with or without them - a horde can cripple one civ while another civ prospers, and I'd prefer a level playing field.

Speaking of which, it looks like the Hittites have a lead in the playtest, mainly from popping many more huts and barb villages than the other civs. RobRoy - is this accurate ? Do you think it's a problem for play-balance ? If so, I guess we could address it with borders or some rule to limit popping.

Egypt: Won 2/2 battles. War with Minos again as requested.

Platypus - Egypt gave a skirmisher to Assyria before you took over, about 10 turns ago. But it is still homed to Memphis, which means it is effectively a NONE unit. Can you rehome it, or disband it ? It is "Near Ashur".

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by Platypus Rex
Assy's now getting more visitors without baskets

Translator!

Originally posted by Peaster
Speaking of which, it looks like the Hittites have a lead in the playtest, mainly from popping many more huts and barb villages than the other civs. RobRoy - is this accurate ? Do you think it's a problem for play-balance ? If so, I guess we could address it with borders or some rule to limit popping.

Probably the strongest, yes. And entirely due to huts, I'd say. Huts always have a rich get richer component and early luck is just better than later luck. Both the Hittites and Minoans tried to implement a hyper-exploration/hut-popping strategy, buying skirmishers and rushing to known hut locations. Plus the Hittites deliberately deferred building extra cities which I'm convinced helps hut luck (though I can't prove it, hut results seemed tech heavy and were city light, but were otherwise close to expectations). Horde appearances affected the hut competition (Assyria, Egypt, Babylon) more harshly, I think, but that was partly due to strategies selected - they all had new, small cities to defend; whereas the Hittites got hit earlier by barbs, but were able to ignore them, and they vanished early.

The hut competitors were generally mollified and didn't oppose the raiding Hittites since we implemented a tech-sharing exploit that benefitted everyone. The Hittites actually only received a few techs, they were mostly giving them out. But the fact that they could continue hut hunting without too much opposition was beneficial. I suspect there would be a greater gap if we hadn't engaged in tech-sharing. As it is, Hittites army and treasury are pretty good. They are a bit behind in number of citites, but that's partly a consequence of my choices). Techs are even at this point, though, I think.

Problem for play-balance? Absolutely. Should we limit? I don't know. We talked about some limits a couple of pages back, and I could live with most of those. I think hut luck is a bigger component that barb luck and would prefer to restrict huts before restricting barbs, especially since we've pretty much confirmed that barbs are softer against weaker civs (as measured by cities, we think), which will probably allow different strategies in a "real" game.

Straybow, if you've freed up some time, why don't you take over the Hittites, Assyrians, or Minoans. We're playing very casually, but your input would be useful on some of our house rule discussions, even if you missed much of the goody hut phase. Some civs are about to start the trade exploit phase.

ISEEALL, you're up.

[ISeeALL]

done

[RobRoy]

@ISeeALL - Do I detect the beginning of the end for the greeks problems? The tile that was the horde's center looks empty for the first time. Also did a Persian horde or two vanish somehow? I thought there were all kinds of barbs to their east last time I focused on them. Also, don't forget the "Jason" spearmen at 112,2 has an event that can net 500 gold for either the Greeks or Persians, but no one else. You could probably do it with 3 skirmishers, 2 strikes me as risky.

Minoans: boats, boats, boats... 2 painful slave raids.

Hittites: Roads, boats, maps. Still can't trade maps with Babs. Gotta make 'em worshipful if you want maps, Platypus.

[Addled Platypus]

Egypt gave a skirmisher to Assyria before you took over, about 10 turns ago. But it is still homed to Memphis, which means it is effectively a NONE unit. Can you rehome it, or disband it ? It is "Near Ashur".

I will go with disband - done


waving parts at the Barb's

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=22570_sa_b3110.hot

[Peaster]

Thanks Platy. Egypt knocks off 2 more barbs and a hut - BW. I was researching it anyway, but had hoped to delay it much longer than this. Well, maybe Egypt will be putting vet units on the open market soon.

With 6 players now, maybe we should settle those old rules debates, and get ready to start. If I get some time, I'll try to organize that a little bit. Perhaps one of us could play 2 civs at first, until we get a 7th, or until one of the 1st 6 gets creamed by barbs... ?