Ancient Empires #2

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by Peaster
Let's start! ISeeAll asked for the monarchy tech...I guess he can also give/trade this tech whenever he wants. And he is required to research the monarchy pre-reqs before any other techs.

Actually he wouldn't be able to give/trade it to us, right away, since we are enforcing the prerequisite rule, right? Which has the happy side effect of keeping Monarchy from mucking up the game too early.

Originally posted by Peaster
BTW - What about this "barb lessons learned" idea ? Am I the only one willing to share?

I'll reserve the 2nd or 3rd post in the new thread to provide some input. Some of the experiences will be impacted by the new house rules, though. For example, hut rushing seemed to work better than early city building, but will now be limited by the per turn hut cap.

[Addled Platypus]

I could do Persia, I will try and not do to bad of a job


dont count on anything historical to happen

[ISeeALL]

Originally posted by Peaster

Let's start! ISeeAll asked for the monarchy tech, so you can start Persia in despotism and he can switch whenever he wants. I guess he can also give/trade this tech whenever he wants. And he is required to research the monarchy pre-reqs before any other techs.

Well, no! If I HAVE to research all monarchy prereqs my bid hardly makes sense. Then I can't even research Spearmen, can I?

Also, my bid implied, that although I can't pop huts, I can erase them by placing citizen on them in city manager menu.

Btw, that offer was a joke, mostly. If RobRoy wishes to play Persia with his bid, let it be so. Since I am not an experienced player, I guess I should take something more standard, like Egypt or Assyria, or Hitties. And really, these tricks with Persia may ruin the scenario.

Sorry guys, the delay may have been because of this misunderstanding. Lets start assigning nations to players.

I can't wait when we start playing.

[ISeeALL]

Originally posted by RobRoy
Actually he wouldn't be able to give/trade it to us, right away, since we are enforcing the prerequisite rule, right? Which has the happy side effect of keeping Monarchy from mucking up the game too early.

I guess I wouldn't trade it anyways, maybe for Republic or at least 5 earlies techs.

But never mind, your bid is fair enough, let's just start playing.

[Peaster]

Hmmm....

Without ISeeAll's bid, it seems Persia could go to:

a) Platypus, who asks for nothing. Thanks Platy!!
b) Heresson, who was assigned Persia for weeks and has not complained
c) RobRoy, the only real "bid" for Persia
d) Me - since I would bid lower than RobRoy

I prefer to give Persia to Platypus, since he seems most willing. I would like to allow him Auto-Irrigation, a 2X hut limit, and monarchy asap (the first player to get this tech must offer it freely to Platypus).

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by Peaster
Hmmm....

Without ISeeAll's bid, it seems Persia could go to:

a) Platypus, who asks for nothing. Thanks Platy!!
b) Heresson, who was assigned Persia for weeks and has not complained
c) RobRoy, the only real "bid" for Persia
d) Me - since I would bid lower than RobRoy

I prefer to give Persia to Platypus, since he seems most willing. I would like to allow him Auto-Irrigation, a 2X hut limit, and monarchy asap (the first player to get this tech must offer it freely to Platypus).

Great! Saw your thread. Will start later tonight. If I have to switch to Persians, or one of the other corner civs, not a problem, first few turns are just moving the skirmisher(s) around. Sooner better than later, though. But am I correct in assuming you want a relatively experienced player as the Hittites, since they are the starting civ, in case we have to do any monkeying?

Yes, Platy should get some considerations. Either my bid or whatever your bid would be, I'd say. Or does this represent YOUR indifference point? But I'm still not sure how Monarchy got into the mix.

[SlowThinker]

People not accustomed to .hot mode should read this: http://home.tiscali.cz/cz045662/civ2...ot-NetPBEM.htm

[Peaster]

Yes, my offer to Platypus is approximately what I would have bid, but keep in mind that I've been playing Persia for two years and prefer a change. I didn't want to include van rehoming; not at all sure how big that factor might be later. ISeeAll's idea of quickened-monarchy just seemed to make good sense for a less-experienced player.

Yes, I'd like you to play the white civ, if you don't mind. You can play turn 1 whenever you are ready. But if it's a problem, I can play white. BTW - I think it's your turn in the playtest (though I'm in no hurry).

Thanks, ST. I will also post that link in the new Game #2 thread.

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by Peaster
After reviewing all votes and recent comments, I want to start play with the rules I already posted, except:

A) Van deliveries are limited to 2 per turn (not including vans for food, wonders or domestic trade).
...

Your House Rules post in the new thread doesn't reflect this. It refers to a ban on 'van rehoming, instead. Is this a mistake? Or is there some reason to change this?

If you're not comfortable with the 'van cap, we can drop it. But, as I've said, I think the ban on rehoming is a bad quarter measure that simply encourages the use of odd/dreary/time consuming alternative exploits (e.g., Hides cities, supply/demand slot micromanagement ), without really limiting how abusive trade can get. If we're not going to limit trade, I'd prefer to allow players to use simple exploits rather than encourage complex ones and suggest we don't ban anything.

Originally posted by Peaster
BTW - I think it's your turn in the playtest...

So, do people want to continue the playtest game?

[Peaster]

RR: I have been busy with RL tonight and rushed the rules a little. Musta forgot that one, but I'll fix it now.

Just looked over Kull's site, for the first time in a long while. So, you were the inventor of Barb Wrath ? Wow, that's pretty neat!

About the play-test, I am willing to politely continue, if others want to, but I am not especially interested in it. I'd kinda like to deliver that da** wool van next turn and see what it's worth, but I could easily do that myself, I guess.

[Addled Platypus]

Originally posted by Peaster


I prefer to give Persia to Platypus, since he seems most willing. I would like to allow him Auto-Irrigation, a 2X hut limit, and monarchy asap (the first player to get this tech must offer it freely to Platypus).

....thank you kind sir


no more play test

on with the show..

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by Peaster
RR: I have been busy with RL tonight and rushed the rules a little. Musta forgot that one, but I'll fix it now.

Unit gifting ban also missing. That's even bigger, IMHO.

Your post also let's us start up an internet session for diplomacy. Don't forget, allowing this would mean we'd have to restart the game as a new scenario at that point or we'd lose the hotseat nature of the scenario and the barbs. I'll put a warning in the "procedures" post, saying we'll provisionally allow it. But is there really a need, if there is no unit gifting? And I'm assuming no city gifting?

If we keep the option you should probably include a caveat in the rules post as well.


Caravan deliveries: I'll post a turn tonight for kicks, but Kydonia isn't at size three yet, nor in WLTK mode (I decided to build a new city instead of pumping it up quicker). So waiting a few more turns might make the payoff significantly higher.

[Peaster]

Platypus - You are welcome, and thanks again for volunteering to play Persia. I think you will be able to get off to a good start and be happy with them. If you ever want to hear about Persia in Game#1, just ask - or you can even go peek at our saves. Though with our new rules, I'm not sure my Game#1 methods still make sense.

Originally posted by RobRoy

Unit gifting ban also missing. That's even bigger, IMHO.
.....
And I'm assuming no city gifting?

Check the 2nd sentence under diplomacy, but I can also list these under "not allowed".

Your post also let's us start up an internet session for diplomacy. Don't forget, allowing this would mean we'd have to restart the game as a new scenario at that point or we'd lose the hotseat nature of the scenario and the barbs. I'll put a warning in the "procedures" post, saying we'll provisionally allow it.

I didn't know that about MP sessions. And you're right - I can't think of a reason we'd need them anyway without unit gifts (maybe for a map trade, if the players can't agree on F3 or civ2dip?) Let's just forbid them - unless someone objects?

Play test: It seems the players are about 3-1 against continuing the play test, so maybe we'll just stop. I was probably going to dump the van in Phaestos next turn, since Heliconia will celebrate then, and my boat was about to sink.

Heresson: Your turn - as Babylon in the real game!

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by Peaster
RR: I have been busy with RL tonight and rushed the rules a little. Musta forgot that one, but I'll fix it now.

The ban on 'van rehoming still seems to be there.

The cap on foreign 'van delivery is the proposed solution to limit the potential abusivenss of ALL trade exploits, rather than selectively banning some, while allowing others.

Players can engage in rehoming, or using Hides cities, or supply/demand slot management to their hearts content, whichever they find most enjoyable or most effective or easiest. But it'll be the cap that limits the abusiveness, rather than any outright ban.

Keeping a ban on rehoming simply isn't necessary to limit abuses, and it just makes it more complicated to trade effectively. We'll all have to study up on the supply/demand management tricks, even more, if we only get two deliveries a turn.

I'd say, if we're still going to force players to go through the pain of micromanagement, we might as well let them abuse it as well, and just forget the cap.


Turn Order and Time Zones:

Looking at the turn order and trying to recall time zones and what worked best in the test game, I wonder if it would be worth it to try to tweak player order a bit in hopes of speeding things up. I recall being pleasantly surprised at how fast some turns were accomplished in the test game.

If there is any easy way to have Heresson follow ISeeALL, it'd avoid having to flip across the pond several times in one game year. And Platypus' following me seemed to work well, most of the time. But it may be too late to try anything like this, especially if we have constraints around Persia or the white player or strong preferences.

Time zone-wise, I think we are:

ISeeALL
Heresson
Bostero
Peaster, RobRoy, Straybow
Platypus Rex

If Platy and Heresson were willing, one change could be to move Heresson back to Persia, and have Platy take Babylon, again. Or, since he's west coast, and for variety, Platy could take Assyria, leaving Straybow, me, and thee with the Minoans/Hittites/Babylon. But you never seemed to have a problem following Platy in the test game.

Late thought, I know, but might be worth considering. Sorry I didn't get a chance to pay attention to this earlier.

[ISeeALL]

Originally posted by RobRoy

Time zone-wise, I think we are:

ISeeALL
Heresson
Bostero
Peaster, RobRoy, Straybow
Platypus Rex

Yeah, a good idea. We can also do some tuning by writing out the usual time we are able to play. This time should be a GMT time. If all players write that out, we can adjust the turn order so that all players make their turns within single day.

I am at my PC from 20:00 GMT till 23:00 GMT every day, also I am at the PC from about 8:00 GMT till 23:00 GMT on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.

Everyone, please write out the same time intervals for you, converting the time to GMT.