Ancient Empires #2

[Peaster]

Announcing the Second Ancient Empires: Seeds of Greatness PBEM!

http://www.cullivan.com/civ/scenarios/sog/index.htm

Hopefully we can start soon, around 9/25/06. I will probably start a new thread then.

The first game started in 2002 and is still going on! Unlike most scenarios, all seven civs have a realistic chance to win.

AFAIK we now have 7 players (only a year after I made this post!): Bostero, Heresson, ISeeAll, RobRoy, Peaster, Platypus Rex, Straybow. But if anyone else is interested, we may need helpers. Like Sparrowhawk in game #1, a helper would keep the game moving with an occasional Ctrl-N, or by subbing. Lurkers - Please volunteer!

The rest of this thread is mostly a play test, in hotseat mode, to check that the Barb Wrath feature works correctly. We are still discussing rules and waiting for more players. AFAIK all players so far are flexible about which civ they get, but here's a tentative match.

Hittites - RobRoy
Babylon - Platypus Rex
Assyria - Peaster
Egypt - ISeeAll
Persia - Heresson
Greeks - Bostero
Minoans - Straybow

I asked Kull for his advice, and he wrote "Make sure everyone understands it's an honor system game. In the end you have to have mutual trust that everyone understands it's just a game, and the real objective isn't winning, but rather the chance to role-play as an ancient near eastern despot. To me, that's the REAL fun in the game, and the only thing that can legitimately retain people's interest over the long term."

[Peaster]

Slowthinker, can you provide us with an initial list of house rules, probably similar to the rules used in Game 1? Of course, anybody can suggest changes. Previous rules are on page 24 of the Game 1 thread:

Game 1 Rules

Shall we start in 4000BC like Game 1, or try to accelerate the first 20 turns somehow? See Game 1 for some options (none were chosen). One new possibility is to start Game 2 from a Game 1 save; from 3900BC or 3800BC, for example.

Slowthinker suggested changing the starting map a little, for those who enjoy exploring. OK with me ... any volunteers to do that ?

[Menelik]

Hi to everybody!

I think this is a really fascinating scenario if we agree to play fast and honest.I would like to play the Minoans as I come from Creta ( though I live in Peloponnesos). If somebody else wants the Minoans, my second choise would be the Greeks, as I live in Peloponnesos ,which is where the Greeks' startpoint is.

[Eurisko]

Greece, please.

Oh, and why change the map? I mean, who cares? I don't see how changing it would make the game more fun, unless it's to an unrealistic degree, in which case the whole thing would be rather... ridiculous.

By the way, which events file are we going to use?

Also, we're playing the Barbarian Wrath version, right?

[Peaster]

Slowthinker likes exploring, and doesn't reveal the starting map. But since he knows most of the Game 1 map by now, he prefers a slightly revised map for Game 2. I see no harm in the idea, if someone can do this for us before we start play. Do you object to it ?

I am using the events file created at 2:30pm on 9/7/02.

Yes, DL the PBEM version of Seeds, which is Barbarian Wrath IIRC... but there have been very few barbarians in Game 1. Seems to be a bug.

[Eurisko]

Oh well, it depends...

A wildly different map could change the game dynamics too much, resulting in historical inaccuracies.

But generally speaking no, I don't really care. How long would it take to do it?

[Kull]

I'd recommend against Barbarian Wrath - there seems to be a bug that keeps it from working in PBEM. When you download the v1.4 zip file, it contains TWO scn files. AE-3500P.scn is the one you'll want to use (AE-3500W.scn is the wrath version)

[Eurisko]

I downloaded the scenario from the Spanish civ site, is there a newer version?

If so, could you please post it?

[Kull]

The latest and greatest:

http://cullivan.com/civ/scenarios/sog/index.htm

(for PBEM you'll need to download v1.4 and all three of the sounds files)

[SlowThinker]

I can take any civ, so I think I will wait and get a civ that will remain.

I am not sure if I will be able to play until the game end, maybe I will have to stop one day. So kick me off if you have a better player or if my idea of a good game is not compatible with yours.

Eurisko, I think there is only one event file.

A 72-hour limit would be ideal for me, but I would like that people play usually faster and that exceptions are allowed if a player asks BEFORE the limit expires.

I don't care about the historical accuracy (and I will ignore any complaints that I expand where I shouldn't expand in a given period ), since I prefer the game itself. But I accept Eurisko wants an accurate map.
My idea was that the new map should be new and unknown for all players. Otherwise in order to wipe an advantage of experienced Seeds player over novices we need to include a rule that allows to reveal the starting map, to play SP games concurrently and to go in cheat mode on the starting map and concurrent SP games.

>A wildly different map could change the game dynamics too much

I think there are points that will change the game dynamics much more: the game level, house rules etc.

Personally I think the speed of research should be decreased: we could change the value in rules.txt or forbid to trade techs.
Maybe we could also forbid unit giving (also because it makes rules complicated).
But a less diplomatic game might cause more wars. And in our current game we would not beat Assyria probably.

An accelerated start - I don't like it. I want to play a new game because I missed the start.

[SlowThinker]

Kull, is there a way how to get some barbs in the game? Would it be better with deity?

And the new version - what is new there?

[Eurisko]

As I said, I don't really care about editing the map, so if you want to do it, go ahead.

Although I might want to take another civ then.

Maybe Assyria.

[Kull]

Originally posted by SlowThinker
Kull, is there a way how to get some barbs in the game? Would it be better with deity?

I'm not sure if Deity has an impact on Barb spawns, but definitely the first person to play should select "Raging Hordes".

And the new version - what is new there?

Nothing. v1.4 is the game we're playing. Take a look at the readme to see what's different vs. the standard game (v1.2)....mostly changes to the events.

[Peaster]

I've posted an ad for this PBEM at CFC. Eurisko - Have you tried finding players at the German site ?

I am flexible wrt most rules and the map. I'd prefer a 48hr limit, especially in the beginning, though 72hr is OK. Mainly I hope we enforce this. I agree about extensions upon request. A rule against unit-giving is OK, to simplify the play and the other rules. The tech speed in Game 1 seems OK to me. But if we decide to slow it, let's use rules.txt and keep tech-trading legal.

My main concern is about unbalanced alliances (eg 5 against 2) but I'm not sure how to rule that out.

[Straybow]

My idea was that the new map should be new and unknown for all players. Otherwise in order to wipe an advantage of experienced Seeds player over novices we need to include a rule that allows to reveal the starting map, to play SP games concurrently and to go in cheat mode on the starting map and concurrent SP games.

Significant changes to the map would require almost redoing the scenario. Resetting the special/hut seed would need quite a bit of tweeking to put silver and sheep and warriors in the right places, etc.