Ancient Empires #2

[Addled Platypus]

this sunday I could crank out some turns

but rest of the week I am doing 5 10 hour days

[Peaster]

Platypus Rex, I gave you for Babylon, but if you prefer some other civ we can still switch. Let's get confirmation from Eurisko or Menelik [maybe also SlowThinker + Straybow] before starting. I'll look for Eurisko at Evo.

Meanwhile, we could settle the house rules (see Game 1 and this thread for some issues).

[Palaiologos]

Can't we just agree to some few and simple house rules?
i.e no cheat menu, no reloading(i hate that), no ship chains, no player contact untill actual in-game contact. That should be it.

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by Palaiologos
But can we agree to something like: "the first 20 turns in 2 days time?"

But the first 20 turns are most complicated! I would expect you would ask rather additional time in the beginning.

Can't we just agree to some few and simple house rules?
i.e no cheat menu, no reloading(i hate that), no ship chains, no player contact untill actual in-game contact.

You like caravan teleporting over all map in one turn and other stuff?
There are good reasons why rules in Seeds #1 game are so long.

But ... I can't say if I will play.
So I won't interfere.

[Addled Platypus]

Bab's are good

YES-simple house rules

I am in the corner of Palaiologos

my e addy platrex at gmail dot com

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by Palaiologos
Can't we just agree to some few and simple house rules?
i.e no cheat menu, no reloading(i hate that), no ship chains, no player contact untill actual in-game contact. That should be it.

One man's clever strategy is another man's cheesy exploit.

I don't have a that big a problem with some of what's been outlawed in the other game. It's particularly ironic that some fairly harmless things are banned, but there is widespread use of more imaginative and abusive (IMHO) exploits.

We either have to go very minimalist or a whole lot further in banning exploits than they have in game 1. I know which extreme is easier.

We might need some house rules for diplomacy or for keeping the game moving (i.e., turn lengths). But aside from blatant cheats (cheat menu, reloading, outside programs), I don't think I'd ban much of anything. I'd even alllow ship chaining (especially given that the scenario has such high movement rates for land units and a 4X road multiplier).

I know it didn't work out in the first game, but if there is any way we could get together at the same time to do an internet game for the first (20?) turns, that'd be great. Then we could save it as a .scn file and restart it as a hotseat game and still be able to get barbarians, I think.

[Addled Platypus]

anyone caught cheating should get removed from game

start a thread with the proff
just might have a hard time playing a game with anyone again

can it be that simple?

[Palaiologos]

Originally posted by SlowThinker
But the first 20 turns are most complicated! I would expect you would ask rather additional time in the beginning.

the first turns are ussually comprised of: moving your skirmishers around and pressind the end turn button.
Thats about it. Sometimes just the end turn button.

You like caravan teleporting over all map in one turn and other stuff?

?How do you do that?

Hell i don't particularily mind even ship chains, but most people seem to do hence the proposal of forbiding them.

I am with Rob Roy on this one. Anything but blatant cheating and constant reloading should be in.

An internet meeting should do the trick. If we can find a mutually accepted time period that is. As for me i am available every day of the week at all hours. I have a broken hand and can't therefore work or go out much.

[Peaster]

Ship-chains seem OK to me (good point about the road movement rate).

Van rehoming should not be allowed IMO. If we allow exploits, someone WILL use them!

IMO tech progess is faster than intended in Game 1 because people trade techs a lot. It is not really a problem though.

AFAIK the Game 1 exploits RobRoy mentions involve giving units back and forth between civs - do you want to allow that?

The main rule I will insist on is a time limit. For example, 36 hours during the 1st 30 turms and 48 hours after that [I am flexible about the numbers]. I agree with SlowThinker that the first turns are interesting, but maybe we can reach some compromise. For example, a ref could sub for the less-interested players to speed up play.

If most players prefer an internet session instead, it's OK with me, but we might lose SlowThinker [and I imagine it would be hard to coordinate 7 players].

I have not gotten any answer from Eurisko or Menelik, so I guess we are back to 4 players + 2 probables.

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by Palaiologos

You like caravan teleporting over all map in one turn and other stuff?

?How do you do that?

Anything but blatant cheating and constant reloading should be in.

What I don't understand is you know most rules are unnecessary and simultaneously you don't know what they prevent.
(In fact you don't teleport the caravan but the home city. But the effect is similar.)

Originally posted by RobRoy
But aside from blatant cheats (cheat menu, reloading, outside programs)

Outside programs are blatant cheats? IMHO any program that does what you could do with paper and pencil is perfectly legal. It only saves your time.

I know it didn't work out in the first game, but if there is any way we could get together at the same time to do an internet game for the first (20?) turns, that'd be great. Then we could save it as a .scn file and restart it as a hotseat game and still be able to get barbarians, I think.

Did you test if this is possible? I asked you in the trhread #1 and you missed it.
I think the city production may be processed twice if you save a net game as a scenario and start a new hotseat game.
But maybe it is possible to rename .net to .hot?

[Palaiologos]

In any case this is Peaster's thread and he sets the rules.
I for my part will agree to anything he proposes.

In the end skill and strategy will determine the
outcome not units without support costs or teleporting caravans or whatever.

It is just a game, lets get started!

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by SlowThinker
...Outside programs are blatant cheats? IMHO any program that does what you could do with paper and pencil is perfectly legal. It only saves your time.

Yes IMHO, they are, as are reloads. The fact that y'all allow such in the other game amazes me, Particularly when you're so quick to ban fairly straight-forward exploits.

I think allowing these things exaggerates a players natural desire to execute a "perfect" turn every time, to have zero tolerance for mistakes, to micromanage each turn to the nth degree, to identify and utilize every possible exploit not specifically identified and disallowed.

To me, mistakes are a vital part of the game. Maybe others enjoy spending hours micromanaging each turn? I don't. I prefer to do a turn fairly quickly and deal with my many mistakes and consequences. Seems a tad more realistic to me. If things get tight, I freely use exploits, but never reload.

Originally posted by SlowThinker
...Did you test if this is possible? I asked you in the trhread #1 and you missed it....

Yes, I posted the results of turning your game into a hotseat game. Barbies galore.

Originally posted by SlowThinker I think the city production may be processed twice if you save a net game as a scenario and start a new hotseat game.
But maybe it is possible to rename .net to .hot?

Might, I didn't check that. Doesn't really bother me much...would be a one-time thing, if so, would effect all players about the same. I suspect simply renaming a .net to .hot would screw things up royally.

Originally posted by Peaster
Van rehoming should not be allowed IMO. If we allow exploits, someone WILL use them!

Yeah, but if we don't someone WILL use several other trade exploits that I find far more objectionable, that increase the level of micromanagement, and that have resulted in some fairly odd situations in your current game.

In general, I think the net effect of outlawing some exploits, while allowing others, is more micromanagement, and more bizarre exploits.

Frankly it's more "fun" to me to let people use simple exploits rather than encourage the use of tortorously complex ones.

Originally posted by Peaster
The main rule I will insist on is a time limit. For example, 36 hours during the 1st 30 turms and 48 hours after that

That sounds reasonable to me.

[Addled Platypus]

If we were to meet

I dont get off of work till 2am PST, could be ready by 2:45


game on

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by Platypus Rex
If we were to meet...game on

Here's a thought:

How about the four or five of us who seem relatively available/eager right now start a throw-away game to test out some of the concepts we're talking about. I'm specifically concerned about making sure barbies work and whether there's any practical downside to using hotseat mode beyond briefly exposing the previous player's map (and assessing how big a problem that would really be - might be a show-stopper for some players, particularly if they're at war and don't trust someone to avert their eyes).

We'd have virtually no house rules and can be playing a bit as we hash them out. Who knows, it might become more obvious to the skeptical among us that certain areas scream for house rules. Or it might become more obvious to the more litigious among us that "less is more". Or it might become obvious that playing styles are so different that we'd prefer not to participate (and could gracefully do so without ruining an ongoing game).

If people are interested, we can try coordinating and starting with a .net session (might be fun, in and of itself, even if we never do much beyond those 10-20 turns), and then moving to hotseat mode to confirm that no anomalies enter the game.

Absent ability to coordinate a .net session, it'd still be illuminating and somewhat fun to start playing (hotseat mode) rather than just debating...again, fully acknowledging that we'd stop/restart once we get all the players together and nail down things like house rules, whether we use civ2dip, who plays whom, etc.

We'd probably just let the AI handle the 2-3 remaining nations if we do a .net session. But we'd probably rotate or assign the remaining nations to humans when we try hotseat mode.

Plus, an active game, even in sandbox mode, could attract the interest of potential players who might be inclined to ignore a thread seeking players.

Thoughts?

[Peaster]

A test seems like a good idea. But I have almost no online experience, so I think RobRoy should organize this and give directions.

My hours are a bit odd: Free from about 4pm - 7pm EST and 10pm - 1am most weekdays (Tues/Wed a bit better, and Friday is different). Most times on weekends are OK.

We don't need many players for testing the barbs, so if my schedule doesn't fit, just leave me out. IMO the house rules won't matter very much until later in the game, when we get boats and vans and so on. The test game probably won't go that far. But who knows - maybe it will raise some issues.