Ancient Empires #2

[Peaster]

ISeeAll - Using the number of active vans seems a little awkward to me. For example, in Game#1, when I had about 15 cities, I built a Wonder using 8 vans. I built most of those just for the Wonder, but some of them I built without knowing how I'd use them. Would the van limit rule prevent this ? Also, I think food vans should not count (limiting those might hurt Persia the most).

If we have a limit, I'd prefer it to be on deliveries per turn (not counting food and WoWs). I could live with one per turn, but would prefer to allow at least three per turn.

We could tie it to the number of cities, at maybe 10% rounded up. For example, with 10 cities, you could deliver 1 per turn but with 11 cities you could deliver 2. Is this getting too complicated ?

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by ISeeALL
or maybe not this ratio. 20% sounds fair to me. Like, if you have 10 cities, you can have no more than 2 caravans active, if you have 50 cities, no more than 10 caravans.

Sounds a bit hard to track and a bit restrictive. I don't think it's advisable to try to limit caravans too much, anyway. Caravans should remain a central part of the game. But there might be support for some limits if we can come up with SIMPLE, reasonable ones that discourage extreme implementation of abusive trade exploits. My own agenda is to try to do that in a way that keeps the trade component of the game simple, fun, and less like work.

I don't think limiting production or active caravans is really feasible, especially using Wrath level barbs. There will be times when your civ is cowering in hills and behind walls - so your caravans will be building up and waiting. If you're also trying to build up a caravan reserve for wonders, I could easily see dozens of caravans being active, even for a modest sized civ. I wouldn't consider that abusive, necessarily.

Originally posted by Peaster
If we have a limit, I'd prefer it to be on deliveries per turn (not counting food and WoWs). I could live with one per turn, but would prefer to allow at least three per turn.

We could tie it to the number of cities, at maybe 10% rounded up. For example, with 10 cities, you could deliver 1 per turn but with 11 cities you could deliver 2. Is this getting too complicated ?

Yeah, I prefer a delivery-based restriction too, if we restrict. But ratios and percentages strike me as a bit complicated.

How about a basic limit of "two foreign deliveries a turn", without any other trade constrainsts and limitations, but:

- any food/wonder deliveries (and obviously production and reserves) are exempt:
- any purely domestic deliveries are exempt;
- if the two deliveries don't fill your beakers (meaning you're probably not being sufficiently exploitive ), you can deliver more until you do fill your beakers.

Since both the one-time bonus and the beaker amount go up as your techs go up, you get a bit of the sliding scale you're probably aiming for with the ratios.

Does that like a reasonable package to replace our other trade restriction proposals? Don't need to ban rehoming; don't need to worry about Hides cities; don't need to try to regulate micromanagement. We'd probably keep the tech prereq rule that mandates eventual acquisition of BW/Nav, though, since that is really a tech aquisition limitation.

In terms of notification, yeah we could announce deliveries if people would like, since we're talking about announcing huts and battles. Maybe exempt internal deliveries or deliveries to barb cities to give an avenue to players who want to be secretive?

Minoans: More pirates, none landed yet.

Minoan production was screwed up. Did anyone open the Demographics screen during their turn? ISeeALL, Heresson, are you both aware the Demograhics screen shouldn't be accessed in PBEM - it screws up the working tile allocations for every AI city. Only open it after you've saved and uploaded, if you want to view the screen.

Hittites: Shared maps with everyone but uninterested Babs. Barbs heading toward Hattusus, attacking Kussara; killed a barb BRam and a BI near Kussara; lotta purdy white units are recuperating, though. Christmas in Hatti-land: found a free slave and a barb leader.

You're up Platy! Babs only, please.

[Straybow]

Hmmmm, instead of limiting deliveries to nn% per turn, limit it to N per M turns. For example: N = #cities; M = 10, -2 for BW, -2 for Nav/PerCulture.

I think once in AEGame#1 I delivered 3 vans in one turn. I'm now delivering 2/turn (more than enough to fill the F6 box with scrolls) and I have a backlog. If I had the BW penalty I might need 3 deliveries to fill the box in some turns.

Without Civ2Dip unit gifting transport would be much slower, I wouldn't have a backlog of caravans, and I'd have a much harder time reaching Central Asia (get permission to send a MilEng and build a port).

I built seven or eight Food vans in one turn for a WoW. Even barring that I've typically had 50% more vans than cities once "end of major combat" was reached in the war.

With tech trading limits none of us would be as far along, I would not be able to avoid BW, and the picture would be a little different. Limiting #vans to #cities would hurt, but I wouldn't whine (much).

[ISeeALL]

Originally posted by RobRoy
How about a basic limit of "two foreign deliveries a turn", without any other trade constrainsts and limitations, but:

- any food/wonder deliveries (and obviously production and reserves) are exempt:
- any purely domestic deliveries are exempt;
- if the two deliveries don't fill your beakers (meaning you're probably not being sufficiently exploitive ), you can deliver more until you do fill your beakers.

limiting foreign deliveries only sounds ok. However, I don't like the 3d exemption from the rule.

Maybe I would propose something like:
- foregin deliveries are bound by 10% of the number of cities rounded upwards, like Peaster suggested (e.g. for 1-10 cities not more than 1 delivery, for 11-20 cities not more than 2 foreign deliveries, for 21-30 cities 3 deliveries etc.). Or, if folks find it too complicated, limit it just by 2 deliveries / turn for the whole game.
- domestic / wonder / food deliveries are not limited

[ISeeALL]

Originally posted by Straybow
Hmmmm, instead of limiting deliveries to nn% per turn, limit it to N per M turns. For example: N = #cities; M = 10, -2 for BW, -2 for Nav/PerCulture.

What I am trying to push is that no player is able to make discovieries faster than one per 4 turns whatever he makes in the game, whatever cheats or game exploits he uses. This rate of discoveries is fair, because it can be reached in this scenario with Empire as soon as you control 1/3 - 1/2 of the map without using vans.

So, instead of limiting vans we can just introduce this cap and say, that the player can't deliver any van (which would increase beakers, so food/wonder vans are not counted) if this would lead to a discovery sooner than 4 turns after the last discovery was made. Discoveries taken from huts may be an exception, since they are given at random and can even hurt sometimes by postponing an important discovery like Monarchy.

What do you guys think of that?

[ISeeALL]

So, I suggest that the following list of rules

// begin list
1) Ban unit-gifts:

2a) Ban/limit tech gifts:

3a) No van rehoming:

3c) "slot tricks" ...

3d) "Hides exploits" ...

6) Ban teleports:

9) No diplomacy:

13) Limit van numbers:

//end list

can be replaced by
19) limit discovery rate to 4 per turn no matter what you do in the game. Techs from huts are not counted.
At later stages of the game (which may not come, I expect) there can be an exception to this: if your science spendings alone (scientists included) allow you faster discovery rate (without any van delivered), let it be faster than 4/turn, but then you can't deliver any van at all.

[ISeeALL]

Tech trading is _not_ an exception: you can't get a tech through F3 from Ai or other player's civ unless your last discovery or tech acquision (not from hut) was at least 4 turns before.

[Addled Platypus]

the dust storm you see is brought to you by Bab units scurring thru the desert

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=22570_ha_b3070.hot

[Heresson]

Nihil novi. A goody hut.

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by ISeeALL
What I am trying to push is that no player is able to make discovieries faster than one per 4 turns...

I'm skeptical that there is an EASY way to implement such a limit and that won't have odd side-effects. In general, I don't like constraints that force people to remember prior turn(s) that may've happened a week(s) ago. They're just too hard to implement, I think. I know the limits we're talking about are way below what you'd really like to see, but I doubt there is support for much more. The uber-barbs will limit things, somewhat, but I hesitate to predict how much.

Originally posted by ISeeALL
limiting foreign deliveries only sounds ok. However, I don't like the 3d exemption from the rule....

Maybe I would propose something like:
- foregin deliveries are bound by 10% of the number of cities rounded upwards, like Peaster suggested (e.g. for 1-10 cities not more than 1 delivery, for 11-20 cities not more than 2 foreign deliveries, for 21-30 cities 3 deliveries etc.). Or, if folks find it too complicated, limit it just by 2 deliveries / turn for the whole game.
- domestic / wonder / food deliveries are not limited

I'd prefer not to have to do extra math, even if that bit seems fairly straight-forward. I could sit still for it, if everyone else likes it, but why do we want to favor bigger civilizations over the small, trading civ (e.g., Minoans)? If excess capacity is a concern, I was thinking the domestic delivery exemption would be sufficient to absorb it. So I'd prefer just saying 2/turn, if the third exemption bothers people.

But reconsider the third exemption a bit before rejecting it. It's really aimed at civs that don't want to engage in ANY trade exploits and want to build up trade evenly throughout the empire, as well as any civ whose trade may be temporarily disadvantaged (e.g., Persia). An absolute limit (whether a number or city-based variable) promotes some of the exploits we're trying to discourage (not ban, now, just discourage), even if it modestly limits how abusive they can get. But if I know that I and my competitors can't get more than X amount of gold/trade in a given turn, and if I have spare caravans, I might now prefer to achieve that limit by delivering four caravans from different smaller cities, rather than two from a STC (thus establishing the ongoing trade routes in the smaller cities). Seems like we'd want to encourage such non-exploitive behavior. No?

Originally posted by Straybow
Hmmmm, instead of limiting deliveries to nn% per turn, limit it to N per M turns. For example: N = #cities; M = 10, -2 for BW, -2 for Nav/PerCulture.
...
With tech trading limits none of us would be as far along, I would not be able to avoid BW, and the picture would be a little different. Limiting #vans to #cities would hurt, but I wouldn't whine (much).

Good to get your input, Straybow. I want to be sure I'm following your example, correctly: if I have six cities, we've set our denominator to 10, so I'd be able to deliver 6 'vans every 10 turns? Right? And that denominator is what we'd debate or modify if people have the trade reducing techs?

Sounds feasible. But the crossing of turns, math, and favoritism to larger civs still give me pause, assuming I've understood it correctly.

We're also interested in your thoughts on tech gifting/trading. Most people seem to want some kind of limit. But we're having trouble coming up with something elegant. Personally, I prefer either a complete ban or no limit. We've talked about restricting it to certain techs (e.g., Leather Armor, Wheel, Monarchy, Trade). Or banning it after certain techs (e.g., Monarchy, BW). Or limiting the number that could be gifted. Do you have any brilliant ideas?

Peaster is up, right?

[Peaster]

Egypt: Much rejoicing in Egypt as the barbarians are driven away. One victory, a few barbs still wandering in the distant sands. Our wool ship jigs SW to avoid pirates, hopes to land in eastern Minos next turn.

I noticed no problems from a missing Ctrl-N, this turn or last. A bit busy with RL today; pls carry on with rules talks!

Just curious - have we had any new hordes in the last 4-5 turns ?

[ISeeALL]

RobRoy, your turn

[ISeeALL]

Originally posted by RobRoy

I'm skeptical that there is an EASY way to implement such a limit and that won't have odd side-effects. In general, I don't like constraints that force people to remember prior turn(s) that may've happened a week(s) ago.

We could control tech rate if the turn reporting included obligatory reporting of any new techs discovered or aquired. When reporting, the player may be oblidged to post what discovery he has made, and what next technology he has selected to research.

I think an easy way could be to make a list of "bonus" years at which discoveries are allowed. It could work the same way as anarchy periods end in original civ 2. As far as I know, changing of government takes place only every 4th or 5th turn, and if you make revolution before that turn, you will be in anarchy for a few years until that turn comes. I never exploited this system because I was lazy to find the list of bonus years btw..

So, if we make a similar list of "bonus" turn numbers, and make the list available to all players, we could insist that the player is allowed to make discovery in these turns _only_ and only 1 discovery in one such turn. If the player fails to make a discovery in this turn, he must wait until the next "bonus" year (either set science rate to 0 or stop delivering caravans). If he fails and still discovers something a turn later, he must get a penalty forbidding him to make discovery in the next bonus year and wait 8 or so turns.

I guess this is an easy way to enforce 4-turn discovery rule: it's easy to see when you can make the discovery by hitting F6 and you can't say you forgot something or didn't understand the rules.

For easier tracking I would suggest that all civs had embassies from the very beginning, and the game master can do checks some time between the "bonus" years. If some civ didn't report of discovering something in the bonus year and didn't report of any fortunate tech acquision through hut popping or city capture, but F3 shows it is already working on another tech, game master should post about it in the forum and forbid the player any discoveries in the coming "bonus" turn.

We wouldn't need any anti-hide or other caravan-limiting rules if we stick to a rule of such kind.



What do you guys think of this proposal?

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by ISeeALL
What do you guys think of this proposal?

I think we have different definitions of "easy" - remember I'm the guy who doesn't even want to calculate 10%! More importantly, I don't sense a lot of support for a one tech per four turns limit - it's much more restrictive than anything else we've been talking about.

Minoans: An ugly red Philistine near Kydonia. More red boats around Crete. Minoans cowering in cities. Boat finally picks up lonely Swordsman in northern Greece. But Royal Minoan Cruises proudly announces regular service on the Crete-Karpathos-Cyprus-Tyre line, which is currently free of dangerous red things, so far.

Hittites: Kussara horde still attacking; spearmen surviving, sometimes becoming veterans, but taking little damage. Killed a couple of barbs. Anyone remember the magic number of cities after which our barbs seem to get tougher? 7? 8? Babs have a Ladder Tower blocking a returning Hittite Chariot; please let me pass, Platy. Everyone but Babs still sharing maps.

Haven't seen any new horde messages, and just the old ones near Minoa and Hatti...not really paying close enough attention elsewhere. I thought one horde sorta vanished near Persia, but I wasn't following it real closely. Please do share everyone, if you see hordes appearing or vanishing prematurely.

You're up Platy.

[Peaster]

Geez! Half a day away in RL and I am already hopelessly behind in this thread. At first glance, I tend to agree with RobRoy - I want something simple. My preferences are:

1) No limits on trade (except rehoming) OR
2) The 10% rule on deliveries OR
3) Max of 2 dels per turn.

I think 1) would be OK. I'd expect much less trade in Game#2 than Game#1 because of the barbs and our ban on unit-giving. In 2) or 3), we'd exempt food vans, wonder vans and domestic routes. Straybow's proposal seems similar to 2) and it is OK with me, but it might be a little harder to keep track of.

Please look back at my updated voting posts. IMO we still need input on the tech-gift rule (ban ? limit ? neither?), limits on huts/villages, how to end alliances, a single-winner rule, and maybe the auto-settler rule (though I think that one is passing).

I am hoping we can start Game #2 by Monday. I will probably have to settle a few undecided rules using the benevolent dictator method (eg I'll ask my wife).