Ancient Empires #2

[Peaster]

Played immediately, but lost the net service til now....

Assyria - Tower defeats barb ram. First caravan departs for the West.

Egypt - Barbarian sightings in the desert seem to be down about 10%; three more units destroyed. Our merchant ship has carried a Wool van halfway to Minos. We are not expecting much Minoan help with transportation, especially since we are at war.

Another little bug? I left-clicked on (22,52) to center my screen. It seemed to be roaded grass, but a supply/demand message popped up for a "size 0" Minoan city "Phaeitos" (? ...hard to read). I got the same result for invisible Persian cities. Probably this is from an odd F3 map trade.

[ISeeALL]

.

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by Peaster
Our merchant ship has carried a Wool van halfway to Minos. We are not expecting much Minoan help with transportation, especially since we are at war.

Happy to help if there's a way that doesn't involve unit gifting - we're leaning toward banning that, right?

Originally posted by Peaster
Another little bug? I left-clicked on (22,52) to center my screen. It seemed to be roaded grass, but a supply/demand message popped up for a "size 0" Minoan city "Phaeitos" (? ...hard to read). I got the same result for invisible Persian cities. Probably this is from an odd F3 map trade.

Bug or feature? Sometimes the map trades seem to cover terrain only, not units/cities/improvements info. But clicking on the tile reveals some information. And city sites usually show as roads, even if you can't see the city. See if it's clearer after this round of map trades. But I think Phaistos was built several turns ago. If it's not clearer, try to initiate your own map trades. It should work with everyone but the Babs and Minoans. Also, try making peace with the Minoans and see if, on the peace turn, you can make gifts of either $, tech, or units (idle curiosity). Don't ally again, though, please.

Is the Assyrian 'van heading toward Tyre, Egypt or Hattusas? What's the cargo and where's it homed? I just don't want it to get in the way of road building, et. al.

Minoans: Some red guys sailing around in the north, some waiting off Akrotiri, none threatening. That lonely Greek horse is getting in the way, again. Knew I should never have helped it across the Bosphoros. Will the Minoan caravan hold the honor of "first delivered" or will Egypt win the race?

Hittites: map trades, except Babylon. Killed a barb BRam and 2 BI. Horde spreading out, but only 1/turn approaching city, it seems. A Persian skirmisher keeps blocking a returning Swordsman, ISeeALL. Might be nice if it moves east so I can go West?

Have we come to a consensus on bans/limits for tech gifting. Ban it completely? Ban it after a certain tech? Allow it only for certain techs? And was everyone comfortable with the 1 hut/slave per turn restriction? And am I the only one who thinks 'van rehoming doesn't mean the end of Civilization as we know it?

Platy, you're up. Why don't you do both Babylon and Assyria, if you get to them tonight, please? Sounds like Herreson will be out for another day or so at least, he can catch the next one.

[Peaster]

The Assyrian van ? .... well, Platy ordered it built, and I didn't know what he had in mind. So, I chose Hides, with several western cities demanding that. Minos (overseas) is tempting, but it can't get there easily if we ban unit-gifting. So, I'd suggest Egypt. But Platy/Heresson must decide, of course.

[Addled Platypus]

Babs just might get a chance to rebuild

that Assy van might have been an auto pick, I have been dedicating builds to defense

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=22570_sa_b3090.hot

[Peaster]

Egypt: Visible desert barbs down to 9; minus one defeated this turn. Contacted Minoans, who offered a cease fire - for BW. With great reluctance, Egypt declined.

Pharoah gets reports that the seas near Minos are infested with pirates [not to mention the irritable Minoans]. He has commissioned a massive Bireme to sink the lot of them.

[ISeeALL]

some barbs near Sparta killed

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by Peaster
Contacted Minoans, who offered a cease fire - for BW. With great reluctance, Egypt declined.

Admirable restraint. Minos thanks you.

Originally posted by Peaster
Pharoah gets reports that the seas near Minos are infested with pirates [not to mention the irritable Minoans]. He has commissioned a massive Bireme to sink the lot of them.

Hmmm...Minoans have no objections to friendly merchant ships near Crete, as long as they don't impede traffic. But enemy warships are another matter. They tend to irritate any good Minoan. Minos assumes they are going nowhere near Crete (or just about any other island) without authorization? Joint endeavors against pirates would be welcome, but should be coordinated. If the Ministry of Defense is kept fully informed of warships movements it would go a long way toward easing the famed Minoan irritability and paranoia.

Minoans: 1 Slave Raid. Found a loaded Egyptian merchant ship. Minoan 'van landed outside Tyre, but is waiting for Hittite authorization to initiate delivery. Minos still claims victory in the 'van race.

Traffic Bulletin from Minoan Ministry of Commerce: All foreign merchants are instructed to approach the island from the south, row 53 or better yet row 54. Ships west of Phaistos, only, may enter rows 48-52, as necessary. If requesting debarkation priveleges on the Zakros (eastern) side of the island, please communicate your arrival date and the Ministry will ensure the roadways to Kydonia are cleared of barb defenses, as current conditions allow. Note that Kydonia, besides being the most profitable city for most foreign merchants, is the ONLY city currently authorized to receive foreign merchants. Merchants requesting to deliver their cargo into other cities must lodge a request with the Ministry no less than three turns ahead of planned delivery date. Failure to comply with these simple regulations will result in revocation of trading priveleges, and the potential destruction of future caravans and transports.

Traffic Bulletin from Minoan Ministry of War: Foreign warships found within two turns movement of any Minoan island (pretty much all of them, I guess) or Minoan transport, without prior notification and authorization will be recognized as pirates and treated accordingly.


Hittites: map trades, except Babylon. Mysterious heavy damage incurred by a Hittite Merchant Ship (overlooked Pirates? or Pirates hiding in the black?). Wandering Sea People finally found road network, heading toward Hattusus, again, I think. Kussara horde starting to threaten Hattusus and Kanesh a bit; defenders kill 3 BRams, 1 BI; Hittites promote two bloody units to "veteran". Westbound Swordsman finally gets past Persian skirmisher - thank you ISeeALL. NEbound Swordman, approaching Rosetta, wonders if the fabled magic of teleportation could be used to get him home faster? Also wonders if the trip home is more likely to be blocked than the trip to Egypt.

Platy, you're up. Just do the Babs this turn, I guess. I think Herreson implied he'd be back later today or tomorrow to do the Assyrians. If it's more than 24 hours, Peaster will probably do them again.

[Heresson]

I'm back

(but I should wait for the Platy guy, right?)

[Peaster]

Originally posted by RobRoy

Hmmm...Minoans have no objections to friendly merchant ships near Crete, as long as they don't impede traffic. But enemy warships are another matter.

"Enemy"? I assume that the Egypt-Minoan "war" is just an F3/AI creation and not real. Also, that you want help clearing the seas of pirates to allow more trade. No ? If you prefer a real war, it's OK with me, but pls clarify this.

Traffic Bulletin from Minoan Ministry of Commerce: All foreign merchants are instructed to approach the island from the south, row 53 or better yet row 54. Ships west of Phaistos, only, may enter rows 48-52, as necessary. If requesting debarkation priveleges on the Zakros (eastern) side of the island, please communicate your arrival date and the Ministry will ensure the roadways to Kydonia are cleared of barb defenses, as current conditions allow. Note that Kydonia, besides being the most profitable city for most foreign merchants, is the ONLY city currently authorized to receive foreign merchants. Merchants requesting to deliver their cargo into other cities must lodge a request with the Ministry no less than three turns ahead of planned delivery date. Failure to comply with these simple regulations will result in revocation of trading priveleges, and the potential destruction of future caravans and transports.

I think you spotted my ship already, 2 turns east of Crete. Approximately on the route you suggested a few turns ago. Is it a problem? There are at least 2 pirate ships south of your island. The ship carries Wool, so either Kydonia or Phaestus is acceptable.

Do you want a percentage of the bonus ? IIRC this is not common among the EVO players. It is normal in Game #1, but the target civ (eg Minos) usually helps the supplier (eg Egypt) more with transportation and safety.

Traffic Bulletin from Minoan Ministry of War: Foreign warships found within two turns movement of any Minoan island (pretty much all of them, I guess) or Minoan transport, without prior notification and authorization will be recognized as pirates and treated accordingly.

Are you basically claiming the western seas for Minos, then ?? IIRC nobody objected to the swarms of Hittite and Minoan adventurers marching past our cities in search of treasure.

Also wonders if the trip home is more likely to be blocked than the trip to Egypt.

Do you want an alliance, to remove the ZOC problem?

I hope some other players will speak up soon about any rules they care about. Also, about any civ preferences.

[Peaster]

Originally posted by Heresson
I'm back

(but I should wait for the Platy guy, right?)

Yes, pls wait. If he doesn't play in 24 hrs, you can play Babs + Assyrians this turn. Feel free to comment on proposed rules while you wait.

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by Peaster
"Enemy"? I assume that the Egypt-Minoan "war" is just an F3/AI creation and not real. Also, that you want help clearing the seas of pirates to allow more trade. No ? If you prefer a real war, it's OK with me, but pls clarify this.

Chill, chill...just doing a little role playing. Minos views pretty much any "warship" (i.e., those with offensive strength) that haven't been properly authorized to be enemies. Swarms of merchant ships are just fine as long as they don't impede traffic, esp. Minoan traffic. Minos doesn't see any good reason for warships in Minoan space unless they're fighting pirates, in which case they shouldn't mind coordinating with the Minoan Navy. No goody huts at sea, anyway, right?

Yes, Kydonia is better, you'll screw up the supply slots if you go to Phaistos (Minos isn't going to rehome in test game, Hittites will). Wait 2-3 turns and Kydonia should be size 3 and maybe in WLTK mode. All the others will be size 1 for awhile. If you want to disembark in the east and move across the island, you're welcome to do so, but I'll need to know so the anti-barb units don't block you. Yes the red ships are an issue, but they tend to head north and try to disembark near Kato Zakro or Akrotiri. So just sail south of them, (might have to wait a turn or two, though).

No cut seems appropriate. I might feel different in a real game, if I'm Minoan and/or if I feel the trade is somehow putting me at a disadvantage.

But yes, Minos is claiming the seas.

And Minos will make peace, again, if the war bothers you. I just wanted to check to see if gifting or other options might be possible in the peace turn, but they weren't for me and I gather you checked last turn and failed also. Pity, 'cause I think the Minoans are the only ones whose situation will be adversely affected if we stick with just F3 (assuming we ban unit and tech gifting).

Hittites were thinking you might be able to demand a withdrawal and teleport the Swordsmen (not this turn, but the one after). If not, an alliance cancellation would teleport without harm to Hittites that I can see, but I'd like to test the first option. Slipping past and marching slowly up the Levant is, of course, the default choice.

Originally posted by Peaster
I hope some other players will speak up soon about any rules they care about. Also, about any civ preferences.

We should probably try to nail down house rules before posting preferences, don't you think? For Persians, at least, we're talking about some exemptions that might influence peoples choices, and make them more palatable. I'd hate for people to have a conflict of interest.

You might want to open a fresh thread and reserve the first post or two for a "straw man" house rules, and maybe a procedures post. I can put them together if you don't get a chance. Debate could/should continue in this thread if people haven't voiced an opinion or disagree. But we'll probably want a fresh thread, eventually, anyway. Title...maybe "Seeds of Greatness-Barbarian Wrath". I always found Ancient Empires a bit confusing, and I think everyone but Straybow is willing to try Wrath, and I thought he sounded willing, even if hesitant. I've never seen the need to specify PBEM in the title. If you've room in the title you could add "(for EVERYONE)" Or would that be too rude?

Originally posted by Heresson
...but I should wait for the Platy guy, right?

Yes, Platy is up, for the Babylonians. Then you (Heresson) will play the Assyrians.

[Heresson]

1) Ban unit gifts

@@@I'm against it

2) Ban Tech trading/gifting

@@@I'm against it

- require possession of both prereqs if you want a tech.

@@@Well, if You have to limit it somehow, that is the best way I guess

3) Limit Trade exploits:
- Ban caravan rehoming;

@@@As You wish, but I'm against it

- Ban skipping the trade reducing technologies (Bronze Working and Navigation);

@@@I didn't know they limited trade
You always learn, they say

- Ban tricks to open up supply/demand slots;

@@@Teach me these tricks!

- Ban Hides production after first one produced; and/or

@@@I'm against it

- Remove Caravan unit.

@@@Ardently against it

4) Limit Hut popping

Against

5) Limit Slaves

against

6) Ban unit teleportation:
- via alliance cancellations; and/or
- via peace withdrawal demands through F3.

@@@As You wish, I don't care

7) Turn limits:
- 12 hours with generous extensions;
- 24 hours with generous extensions;
- 36 hours; and/or
- 48 hours or more, especially in certain phases of the game.

@@@I think 24h is fine, unless someone asks for more

8) Civ selection:
- Less experienced players select first

For

9) Other Diplomacy Limits:
- Ban any diplomatic contact at all. Civs all stay at permanent war; and/or
- Alliances can exist only if established at game start and have to remain in place throughout the game.

@AND

- I would suggest any diplomacy between human players should be forbidden, because it wasn't designed for multiplayer in the first place. All human players set Enraged towards all other human civs and be in permanent state of war. Still, humans may contact AI civs, trade techs, share maps etc. If an envoy from human civ tries to contact us, send the envoy away.

@@@Ardently against it

[Peaster]

Trying to collect the rules votes here. Please check this and correct any errors I've made interpreting your posts. I guess you can change your vote at any time. I'll use "R+" for "RobRoy agrees" etc. I'm including Kull's opinions since he IS the designer after all. In case of tie votes, or a general malaise, I may step in later as a benevolent dictator (eg the thread starter) and make some decisions...OK?

1) Ban unit-gifts: passing.... R+ I+ K+ Pl+ H- Pe- . I'd break a tie by a "P=" (eg withdrawing my vote) especially if most players don't have civ2dip.

2a) Ban/limit tech gifts: Needs more discussion? R+ I+ Pl+ K? H- Pe- (I favor limits but not a total ban).

2b) Pre-req rule: Passing.... Pl+ R+ Pe+ H+? K+ I+

3a) No van rehoming: Seems passing: Pe+ K+ I+ Pl+ R- H-

3b) No skipping BW/Nav: Passing.... Pe+ R+ K+ I+ (Pl+)

3c) Anyone opposed to "slot tricks" should propose a specific rule against them ASAP. (looks like it would pass)

3d) Anyone opposed to "Hides exploits" should propose a specific rule against them ASAP. (looks like it would fail)

3e) No vans: Failing .... I+ Pl+ Pe- H- K-

4) Limit hut pops: needs more talk.... Pe+ R+ I+ H- K- Pl-

5a) Limit slave gathering: maybe failing.... Pe+ R+ I- H-? K-? Pl-

5b) Slaves can't make cities: seems failing.... R+ K+ I- H- Pl- Pe=. I'd tie-break with Pe-.

6) Ban teleports: Passing but needs talk.... Pe+ I+ K+ Pl+ R- H=

7) Time limit: The consensus seems to be "24hrs, with possible extensions". WARNING: This is THE rule that I care about, and I will do my best to enforce it !!

8) Choosing civs can wait a bit.

9) No diplomacy: Failing.... Pl+ I- Pe- R-? H-

10) Wrath version: Passing... R+ I+ (Pl+?) St- Pe= ... I would break a tie with a Pe+.

11) No Auto-Settlers: Needs talk .... I+ (Pl+?) R- Pe= (I'd tie-break with a Pe+).

12) Report battles: Passing .... Pe+ R+ I+ Pl+

13) Limit van numbers: Needs talk?.... I+ R? Pl- Pe= (probably tie-beak with P-).

14) Single winner game: Needs talk.... Pe+ I=

15) Fleece-to-Greece: Passing.... Pe+ R+

16) Sops to Persia (maybe discuss this last): R+ Pe=

17) No unsinkable ships: Needs talk..... I+ Pl+ Pe+ (the designer has flagged which ships should stay near land) R-.

18) All other Game#1 rules: Passing by default.....!

[ISeeALL]

My votes here


2b) Pre-req rule: Passing.... R+ Pe+ H+? K+ I+

3a) No van rehoming: Seems approx 2-2: Pe+ K+ R- H- I+ Pl?

3b) No skipping BW/Nav: Passing.... Pe+ R+ K+ I+

3c) No slot tricks (rule details and opinions on it are unclear to me): R+ Pe- I+

3d) Anti-Hides rule: Failing.....R+ Pe- H- K- I+

3e) No vans: Failing .... I+ Pe- H- K-

4) Limit hut pops: needs more talk.... Pe+ R+ H- K- (Pl-?) I+

5a) Limit slave gathering: Not sure of votes.... Pe+ R+ H-? K-? Pl-? I-

5b) Slaves can't make cities: Probably passing .... R+ K+ H-? Pe=. I'd tie-break with Pe-. I-

6) Ban teleports: Passing.... Pe+ K+ R- H= I+

9) No diplomacy: Failing.... Pe- R-? H- --> changed my mind I-

10) Wrath version: Tied... R+ St- Pe= ... but since we have put so much effort into testing the Wrath version, I would break a tie with a Pe+. You mean a lot of barbs? I+!

11) No Auto-Settlers: Needs talk .... R- Pe= (I'd tie-break with a Pe+). I+

12) Report battles: Passing .... Pe+ R+ I+

14) Single winner game: Needs talk.... Pe+ --> I= (don't know)

17) No unsinkable ships: Needs talk..... R- Pe+ (the designer has flagged which ships should stay near land). I+