Rise of the Third Riech

[Sarsstock]

Don't get me wrong, I would be completely in favor of any "Vichy" style setup if it could act as historically as the real regime did. I just don't believe its possible however, not with the Civ II engine.

I do however recall in the classic Red Front that if the Soviets made certain advances into Finnish territory late in the war that a trigger allowed Finland to negotiate a peace with Russia. I'm not sure exactly how this was done, but perhaps the same could applied here.

If not, then I think the forum would forgive the historical inaccuracy of Germany having to take all of France.

[Eivind IV]

Just some questions and suggestion:

1. Glad you chose to start in 1933 !

2. If I were you I'd probably size down the map to only include Europe and skip America, using mapedit. It would free up a sorely needed civ (Italy alone maybe?) and American units could be given to the British civ. Also the barbarians could be used for something else.

3. Also, Iran as a non-invadable country? It was invaded by Soviet and British forces in August '41, remember?

4. What does that surrendering unit do?

5. I can't see how it's feasable in civ2 to transform France into Vichy France, rather than having it as a civ from the start, using the American civ I hope you remove.

6. How will the war start? Will it come by events in sept '39? I'd like to see it that way.

7. The Spain issue: I suggest you keep the borders around Spain impassable by terrain. Make Republican spain barbarian and leave the nationalists to capture the cities. Would certainly ease up the Spanish issue for you in a practical and easy way. If you want a "what if" with nationalist spain, you can remove the impassable terrain with normal terrain with an event terrain switchover.

8. Will you have winter and summer seasons? It would certainly make it fun. Take a look at my Blitzkrieg 1942, the latest version (v.3.0). It introduces winter only where I want it on the map. So you could keep Africa out of the winter.

[Sarsstock]

Those are all good suggestions there Eivind. I'm curious though, where can one get a copy of Blitzkreig '42 v3.0?

[Eivind IV]

Originally posted by Sarsstock
Those are all good suggestions there Eivind. I'm curious though, where can one get a copy of Blitzkreig '42 v3.0?

Choose between the SLeague, Evolution Games and of course Apolyton

[Patine]

@Eivind IV: Those are some fairly decent ideas, there. First, I'd thought '33 was a good start that gives the player a good chance to accomplish a lot. Second, I'm not sure about losing the US as a civ; it might be a good idea in the end, but it'll need consideration; US units being British may work just as well, and it would admittedly allow better coordination between the Western Allies. Italy as its own civ I don't really think is necessary, though, as it just shares with the Eastern European Axis and the Nationalist Spanish, but I could be wrong. As well, the barbs do have another role other than Latin American neutrals; that is, the 'Demilitarized Zones' of Austria, the Czech part of Czechoslovakia, the Rhineland, and Danzig, and I'll try to get AGRICOLA or someone to hex edit them into an alliance with everyone but the Germans. Third, I'd forgotten about the invasion of Iran; I may have to fix that. Fourth, the surrendering unit is a pathetic garrison for the Demilitarized Zones. Fifth, I don't want two civ slots used on separate French players (the conquered ones who resisted, and Vichy France, respectively), but it just occured to me that the 'fighting' French (the northern two-thirsds) could be controlled by the British, and Vichy France (along with the colonies and mandates) could use the currrent French slot. Sixth, the war with the Contested states starts by the Germans simply attacking them, the war with the British and French begins when any Polish, Norweigan, or Danish unit is destroyed by the Germans, the Germans begin war with the Sovets upon researching a tech, and the US enters the war (or, if I choose to follow your advice, US units become available to the British) in Dec' 41. Seventh, I'd planned on Spain being enclosed already, but I'm reluctant to use barbs for the Republican Spanish (I'd planned it to be a Contested nation) as that would mean the Pro-Germans could also fight the barbs, and thus Italy or Hungary could capture one or more of the Demilitarized Zones. And, eighth, I'll check your scen to see how you did summer and winter before deciding myself, but I don't have a lot of terrain slots to work with. I appreciate this stellar advice and, don't worry, it will be mulled over. Thanks!

[Eivind IV]

1. Why even bother having the spanish civil war represented if you intend to keep it blocked anyway? That would free up another civ for you, and some units. You could just have text events telling the development of the war.

Having all pro german states in the pro german civ could cause some serious problems for the game play. Soviet Union won't invade Finland alone, but Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary etc as well.

I would suggest 1 civ consisting of Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary, 1 for Italy and 1 for Finland. If you exclude Spain and the US this would be feasable. I think the argument of good coordination of the allies weighs heavier than any other. Such as the abstraction (is that even a word?) of for instance the submarine warfare. The submarine warfare could be represented in with a "-" in gold for the allies until a development of an enigma tech for the allies or something.

2. As for Vichy France, I think you're on to something with having Britain controlling the "free french" part of pre-war France. How about having impassable terrain along the coast of France for Britain, until the war breaks out (ie Germany invading the low countries), using change terrain events. So Britain thereafter can reinforce France.

You can also have impassable terrain along all the Vichy french borders, and open the borders if the allies invade Morocco or something, so Germany can invade and "protect" Vichy France as they did.

3. Winter terrain:
You won't have to sacrifice any terrain using my tecnique. What I did was to use mapcopy in a batch file to copy terrain from two premade maps to the save. So, you take the map, replace terrain in the northern part of europe with tundra and another summer map with green green grassland . Tundra having movecost of 2 and defense bonus of 100% would realisticly slow down war during the winter. This technique effectively emphasises the imporance of spring offenses and bogges down winter offenses. This would be a great way to depict the The Phony War (asuming you go with ww2 outbreak in september 39) and other spring/summer offenses. This will, however, demand you change terrain, say every october and every april (like I did in bk1942).

[Eivind IV]

Also, another bright idea of mine!

Remove the contested civ.

Give all its cities to the British civ (Poland , Denmark, Norway, the low countries), but place french units inside. This way britain can't use these cities, and since France will be blocked with impassable terrain anyway, they can't either. And now upon attacking these cities you still will go to war with Britain. Yes, I know, I'm a genious!

Make baltic states neutral (barb), with maybe soviet units inside. And Ethiopia and Albania with italian units inside.

[typhoon]

Originally posted by Eivind IV
Yes, I know, I'm a genious!

No you're not. "Genius" doesn't have an o in it. What you are is ingenious

[Eivind IV]

I'm still a genius, I'm just not English

[typhoon]

Try latin

[Sarsstock]

Well whatever Eivind just may be, he does bring up some interesting points. Still, the final decision has to be Patrick's in the end, as this is his brainchild.

I do love the concept for this game where each and every conflict that in part lead to the Second World War is represented, I just hope its possible with the Civ II engine and creative events making.

[Patine]

I'm not quite sure I understand what effect putting foreign units in a city has, exactly, as I've never tried it. Could you please explain this to me, and how it will aid my scen.

[Henrik]

I began working on a similar scenario but with a rather different approach once.
Mine would've started in 1920 and the idea was to allow for rather open development. Everyone would be able to pick their research paths etc. Basicly the idea was that there are no true nation specific units, rather you get generic ones depending on what doctrines/techs you researched. There would be loads of options on what kind of weapons to research though.
The option of government form would also be open to everyone. Thus no pre-set vichy france.
Defence lines a la the maginot line would be a terrain transformation result (one which would take eons to complete but would add a significant defence bonus to any unit on top of it...).

The idea was that this scenario would allow for the real life development, but wouldn't force it on the player (and infact exact development along the lines of real history would've been rather unlikely).

Never got around to finnishing it what with me starting to study at the university and such.
Yes, this was my random rambling for the day

[AGRICOLA]

I'm not quite sure I understand what effect putting foreign units in a city has, exactly, as I've never tried it. Could you please explain this to me, and how it will aid my scen.

This approach opens an interesting can of worms. I ran across it in one of curt's scenarios where a British city had a couple of Brit units in it and one barb. When the two Brit units had been eliminated, the city appeared to be unoccupied. However, when one of my units tried to enter it, it was promptly chopped up by the perfidious barbs.

A spy/diplo who investigatigates such a city (or using the cheat mode) does not see anything but the 2 Brit units. I assume that barb units can leave the city and then attack it if the AI so decides.

Add this to your bag of dirty tricks. It may not be a bad way to model urban guerrillas.

[Sarsstock]

Hmm.... are you suggesting Agricola that that could be a solution to the Spanish Civil War? Or rather a way to represent partisan activity in the USSR or Yugoslavia?