Red Front for ToT

[Boco]

Originally posted by techumseh
I wonder if we could start with just a ToT conversion of the original scenario with updated graphics? The scope of this project has expanded dramaticaly, and I fear it's going to take a long time to finish.

I've lost track. Was this going to be a events 'port to ToT, or a Colwyn-style revision?

[AGRICOLA]

It was to be a Colwyn type revision to remedy weaknesses in both RF 1.4 and RF 1.5. I know that FMK was intending to make Stalingrad, Zitadelle and the defence of Germany much more significant events.

I have no details on how he intended to do this, what other events he was going to add or how he was going to change things like Lend-Lease.

[curtsibling]

Time to call in the masters of game mechanics and ToT events...

Tech, Boco, Catfish, Agricola, anyone?

[Boco]

If everyone else runs away, I could give it a stab. However, EAv2 is my first priority for the next month or so. I know it's not much of an offer, but maybe it'll spur Agricola someone more competent.

Tech if this remains untaken after WoC and EAv2 are released, would you be interested in splitting duties on this? Or does the contest loom next?

AFAIK, Catfish hasn't posted here since January. If he doesn't lurk, you should be able to reach him at CivFan.

[AGRICOLA]

Boco, you did right in crossing out my name. This is not a project for amateurs who know nothing about scenario design.

IMO, this undertaking calls for a TOT expert or a team of TOT experts who have the vivid and nasty imaginations needed to develop a very difficult but fair scenario.

As this began as a community project, I think that the developer(s) can expect that all community members will be happy to contribute to the best of their abilities. Where can we sign up?

[techumseh]

I think I've said this before, but at the risk of being repetative, the place to start is with a conversion of the original Red Front to Test of Time, with a Fairline graphics overhaul. Then we can begin to tinker with additional events.

I am unfamilar with Colwyn's remake, and need to be convinced that it's an improvement. Perhaps after the above is done, we can itemize the changes and consider each individually.

[AGRICOLA]

I am unfamilar with Colwyn's remake, and need to be convinced that it's an improvement.

The only way you can convince yourself is to play the first year of both scens.

If greater difficulty is a criterion, I finished Nemo's RF 1.4 in Sept '42 and completed Colwyn's RF 1.5 in Sept '44. Both my games were Deity and I was playing for world conquest.

I don't see the point of a straight conversion of RF 1.4 to TOT. There are enough major loopholes in the scen to negate much of its challenge.


BTW, has anyone else actually played RF 1.5? I'm starting to feel like a single voice crying in the wilderness.

[Boco]

Sadly, no, but since you're the master of loopholes thinking outside of the box in scenario play, I trust your judgement.

Should the first step be a gfx overhaul with a straight conversion of Colwyn's events (v1.5 was for MGE, right)? He did put a lot of effort into it. Were there any aspects of v1.5 that were a step in the wrong direction? Can someone bump his thread?

[AGRICOLA]

The following is copied from page 1 of the Non-graphics mods for TOT Red Front Redux thread.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=124965&perpage=75&pagenumber=1

I'm bringing it here because having two threads for the Redux does not seem to be working. The attachments are in the original thread. This is as good a summary as I could come up with 7 months ago. I also bumped the thread a couple of days ago to make it more easily accessible for anyone interested in reviewing the discussions that took place last year.

Proposed Changes for Red Front Redux

What follows is in two parts. Part A briefly summarizes the most significant changes that Colwyn has made so that RF 1.5 is considerably more difficult than RF 1.4. Part B covers the improvements to RF 1.5 that have been suggested by contributors to this thread.

The attachment contains zipped saves from RF 1.4 (May ’42) and RF 1.5 (Dec ’43) which illustrate how the use of various existing loopholes can distort both scenarios.


A. Major changes from RF 1.4 to RF 1.5

I. Eliminated the “Too many units” problem.
Changed the .scn file by thinning out the rear echelons of the German forces by ~200 of the weakest units (Romanian Inf, Wehrmacht, Stu III G etc.).


II. Replaced the Supply Convoys from UK with shipments of military units.
This has greatly reduced the money available for rush buying and made it mandatory that a player develop the productivity of Soviet cities. IMO, despite my initial misgivings, this change has significantly improved the game.


III. Eliminated the event (Winter ‘41-’42) that spawns two Partisans for every Red Army that is killed.
A player can easily build 150+ inexpensive, weak Red Army during the winter of ‘41-’42, stack them up in front of Soviet cities to get them killed off and end up with 300+ much stronger Partisans far behind the German lines. With airlifted and locally RB reinforcements this Partisan army is strong enough and large enough to rapidly conquer all of Europe in ‘42.


IV. Reduced the 2-turn movement capability of all Soviet aircraft to 1 turn, shortened their ranges, made them extremely expensive and eliminated their attack capabilities in winter.
This prevents the use of aircraft to form a defensive line that blocks German movement. It also means that aircraft play a minor role in RF 1.5 and that Soviet units have to operate without air cover.


V. ABSOLUTELY prohibited the selling of AT Defenses.
The RF 1.4 save shows why this was necessary.

1. Because selling AT Defenses is not forbidden in RF 1.4, it is possible to employ a scorched earth strategy of razing all possible cities from Riga to Odessa rather than letting them fall into German hands.
2. As there are no German-held cities within Luftwaffe range of the Soviet front line, Luftwaffe aircraft no longer pose a threat to the Soviets.
3. With the Luftwaffe threat removed, the only defensive forces that the Soviets need are ~60 La-5 fighters to form a picket line whose ZOC stops German ground units from advancing. The only unit that the La-5’s need to worry about is the occasional Sdkfz 4x20mm Flak.
4. Meanwhile Il-2 Shturmoviks can have a field day shooting up German ground units. They are in no hurry and can afford to wait for German units to move onto ground with no defensive bonus.
5. In the Rostov area, most German units are spawned in squares where there used to be cities. With the cities gone, they become sitting ducks, without even a fortress to protect them. Il-2’s can regularly kill stacks of 20-50+ freshly spawned units.

It is a very cosy situation for the Soviets who can chop up German units at their leisure with minimal risk of losing any of their own units, a far cry from the dangers the Soviets actually faced in the summer of ’42.


VI. Added new house rules, both to close loopholes and make the scen more dificult.




B. Recommended changes to Colwyn’s Red Front 1.5

I. Minimize Soviet amphibious capabilities by making them unable to build any ships except those spawned by events in UK.

At present, players can use three major rivers to safely freight units into the heart of Germany in winter when the Luftwaffe cannot attack. This possibility was suggested by Xin Yu in his excellent essay on Red Front strategy. Although I have taken advantage of this in my games (see the RF 1.5 save), there is no way that it could actually have happened. AFAIK, the Soviets carried out only minor amphibious operations in WWII.

Proposed remedy:
Remove the Steel tech from Soviet tech list to make it impossible to build any ships. I would appreciate opinions on whether the Soviets should keep the freighters that they have at the beginning of the scen in the Baltic (2) and Black (3) Seas. Enterprising players could make considerable use these few ships for small but not unimportant amphibious operations. Also, should the Soviets start with a number of freighters in the Caspian Sea and on the Volga for transporting units to the front?


II. Make both the battle for Stalingrad and the Caucasus invasion events that the Soviets cannot avoid.

Stalingrad was one of the pivotal battles of the war, yet in the RF 1.5 saved game the Soviets managed to avoid it. This should not be possible, the battle was too critical to be circumvented by players.

In the RF 1.5 save, the pontoon bridge was taken out by 152mm Howies (IIRC, 10 were lost). German units that subsequently spawned on the site of the bridge had to cross minefields to get to Stalingrad. Howies in Kotelnikovo had a field day using the immobilized German units for target practice. There was no battle for Stalingrad or any threat to the Caucasus.

Proposed remedy:
Change events so that at least some German units are spawned on the east bank of the Don, change the types of units spawned to include more units that can ignore city walls, randomize spawning locations and, maybe, use CHANGETERRAIN events to remove possible minefields. In other words, do everything possible to ensure that Soviets will have to fight for Stalingrad and defend the Caucasus.


III. Try to make Kursk ’43 (Zitadelle) a significant factor in the game.

There seems to be general agreement that this phase of the war could be be improved.

The Kursk problem may be insoluble because there is no guarantee that the Soviets will have advanced to the area where the units for Zitadelle are created. We may have to accept the fact that units created for Zitadelle may start out a considerable distance from the nearest Soviet units. The RF 1.5 Dec ’43 save shows that the last of the Zitadelle units are still west and southwest of Voronezh. In ’43, my Soviet units never left the protection of their cities and minefields and had no difficulty in destroying the units spawned for Zitadelle.

Proposed remedy:
Increase the number of spawned units . . . . . and hope for the best.


IV. Make the defence of Germany in ’44 and ’45 stronger, more active and more of a challenge for players.

Dr Kellogg and others feel that this warrants tweaks such as:

1. Invisible Volkssturm which appear after German cities are taken; no serious danger but really annoying.

2. Extraordinary strong Waffen-SS -high movement or invisble flag- which appear very late in the game and which try to defend their country till the bitter end.

3. The chance of counter-attacks by the Germans if Soviets stop their advance or are not able to take major cities within a certain timeframe (in this case the Germans would have had enough time to organize and re-group their defense...)

Proposed remedy:
The German defences can be improved by starting the scen with all or selected German homeland cities already with a Hedgehog or a similar static, strong defensive unit so that events need not be wasted creating them. In anticipation of the end game, cities that will be designated as “fortresses” in ’44 or ’45 can start with 2 or more such strong defensive units. In addition, any of the above suggestions or variants of them can be implemented.

Possible drawbacks include that #1 may require the equivalent of a German partisan unit which could not use the existing partisan slot because there already are both Soviet and Yugoslav partisans. # 3 may use up an excessive amount of events space if used extensively.


V. Create a race for Berlin between the Allies and the Soviets.

At present, RF 1.4 and RF 1.5 use change terrain from industry to ruins or plains to simulate the effect of the Allied strategic bombing of German cities (summer ’43 to end of scen). Although historically correct, this has a minimal effect on German production. For most of this period, German cities convert production to gold. Also, starting in late summer ’43 and continuing to the end of the scen, G.I.’s and Sherman tanks are spawned, first in Italy and then in central Europe. These are too few and too weak to capture German cities.

Proposed remedy:
Create Allied heavy bombers (B-17’s, B-24’s or Lancasters) powerful enough to destroy city defenders, first in Italy and then in Germany. These could show up in Italy during the summer of ’43 and in Germany at some time in late ’44. If the bombers can be made to attack nearby cities (this should work in TOT because in Market Garden freshly spawned German aircraft make a beeline for the nearest Allied unit or city) then, together with additional G.I.’s and Shermans, they should be able to start capturing Italian cities in ’44 and German cities in early ’45.


VI. Eliminate the T-34/76 to JS-2 and La-5 to P-47 loopholes.

These loopholes appear if players do not follow the sequence of actions expected by the scenario. The loopholes exist in both RF 1.4 and 1.5.

1. The sequence of Soviet tank improvements is supposed to start with T-34/76 which is upgraded to T-34/85 when the Soviet Armament Industry (Leonardo’s) wonder is built.
2. If a player does NOT build the Soviet Armament Industry wonder and continues to build and play with T-34/76’s, in May ’44 his inexpensive T-34/76’s are replaced by JS-2’s, a considerably better and more expensive tank because the T-34/76 slot is occupied by the JS-2 in RULES 7, 8 and 9.
3. The La-5 to P-47 loophole has a similar origin. A player who does not build the wonder or research the tech for the Yak-9 will end up with an unintended upgrade of his La-5’s to P-47 Thunderbolts in RULES 9 (Summer ’45).

Proposed remedy:
Put the JS-2 and P-47 in new slots rather than use existing T-34/76 and La-5 slots.


VII. Relocate Labor Brigades to where Nemo has them at the start of RF 1.4 and restore the number to 16. Ensure that all LB’s go “active” during the “ghost” turn.

In RF 1.5 the author advocates that the Russians found new cities in Siberia, has positioned Labor Brigades to do so and suggests that this is necessary to win the scenario. I tested this idea and, unfortunately, the results do not agree with his ideas. Expanding existing cities is a much more efficient way to increase production than building additional cities in the Siberian forest.


VIII. Change square (50,28) from ocean to land.

This is a very subtle change made by Colwyn in RF 1.5 that allows players to create an ocean passage from UK to the Baltic (see RF 1.5 save). If the Soviets are to be unable to carry out amphibious operations in the Redux, freighters from the UK must be kept out of the Baltic.


IX. Give units a choice in what they pillage.

The choice exists in RF 1.4 but I’m not certain whether there is or is not a choice in RF 1.5. When I had all the relevant RF 1.5 files in one folder, there was no choice. Farmland and irrigation were automatically pillaged before a road could be destroyed. When I moved the files to a new folder, there was choice. I never did bother to figure out why and played the scen with selective pillaging. My rationale was that even the dumbest Soviet lieutenant would know that blowing up bridges and culverts would delay the Germans more than torching or trampling down cornfields.


X. Include the following house rules from both RF 1.4 and RF 1.5.

A. No disbanding of units (except freighters).
B. No chaining of freighters. This increases the chance that freighters may be sunk. However, as freighters carry military units rather than Supply Convoys, the loss of a ship is no longer a catastrophy.
C. No incremental rush buying.
D. No airlifting units from UK to the USSR,
E. No selling of antitank defences in order to carry out a scorched earth strategy of razing cities rather than have them fall into German hands.
F. No unit movement, sales or build queue changes allowed in the phantom June 1941 turn.
G. No moving or rehoming of fortified positions.
H. No building of airfields as substitutes for RR.
I. No selling of NKVD Headquarters


I sincerely apologize to several contributors who have proposed changes based on the events capabilities of TOT. I definitely do not have the expertise to judge the merits of these proposals. I will leave that to the scenario designer who will actually implement the changes and create the Redux scen.

Please voice your opinions, suggestions or screams of outrage.

With my greater appreciation of what can be done with TOT, I would now add stackable terrain as a desireable feature in the Redux. Also, the greater capabilities and features of TOT make some of the house rules unnecessary and some of the recommended changes very easy.

[techumseh]

If the concensus of those who have played both is that 1.5 is a clear improvement, then perhaps we should start with that. I'm sure many of the other changes suggested would improve the scenario further, but I just know that we need to move in doable stages and keep things a simple as possible. Otherwise it gets more and more intricate and work intensive until people start dropping out. (see above).

Once we have a working ToT version of 1.5 with new graphics, THEN there will be lots of enthusiasm for the next round of adjustments. Plus people will have a working model to use as a basis for future decisions.

[Sarsstock]

Let it be known henceforth that Chris aka Sarsstock has volunteered to help in any way shape or form that he can. I have already made up the title graphic and I'd love to contribute some of my new circular shields to the project if so desired.

[Jimmywax]

Originally posted by fairline
You're a bit late though - I've bought a new'un today. This time it's a shiny Compaq, so it should hopefully last a bit longer than my previous three pieces of crap. On inspection, the last one had scorch marks on the motherboard!! That couldn't have been good for it methinks....

I don't know about your side of the pond, but here in the colonies Compaq's are crap. Although they are four times better than they were before Hewlett Packard bought them out. Good luck with your new machine .

[Eivind IV]

As this seems to have come to a halt, would you at least just post the graphics update in the mean time (and the actual game changes later)? Alternatively you could mail it to me alone

[Broken_Erika]

me too
i love the units and the wait is killing me, and a number of other sleagers,

[AGRICOLA]

Originally posted by curtsibling
Let us pull our resources together and get Red Front completed, guys!

I would make a fine project to end the year on!

Who wants to bump the thread?

Bump.

I'm afraid that Red Front is starting to look a bit jinxed. Colwyn apparently has switched to CIV III after completing RF 1.5. Field Marshal Klesh appears to be pursuing other interests after a computer crash destroyed much of his work the redux. I hope that your clarion call to arms will bring forth some brave TOT designers who are not fazed by jinxes and who have time for this project.