Gold Gulch Playtest!

[Harry Tuttle]

Ok, while Agricola is experimenting with the cattle, what else should be on my to do list? I already have the following:

1) Convert and swap in the sounds

2) Draw the Saloon owners

3) DLL's and spaceship (this will be last)

As for suggestions:

- I have a bit more KB to use up in the events file and one more unit slot to use. I could put in an event, as Smiley suggested, that will give the players cash for killing the animals, but this would be of large scope as each civ would need a trigger. So I'm thinking of something smaller.

Also, for further playtesting:

1) I need to know if guerilla warfare works. The partisans were replaced by a drunken Mariachi band and should have an event that tells the player what that whole flavor unit is about. Does it work?

2) How are the special units, Butch Cassidy, Calamity Jane, etc... working? Do they show up when their tech is discovered? They should show up only once and be under the civ who discovered the tech first.

3) How nasty are the Sioux units? Are they a real pain?

4) Has anyone built any improvements, like street light, liquor, gun nests, or gambling? How are those? Can you build them outside of the city terrain tiles?

5) How are the vermin? Do they act like nukes?

6) Are the city improvements working like they should?

Let me know if you have encountered these things, thanks.

[AGRICOLA]

Regarding rustling, N35t0r is right in that you need attack role units in the corral. Both Scouts and Railway Men rustle cattle. The first problem is that none of these units can long survive attacks by respawning ranchers.

The second problem is that there is no movement of units from Gold Gulch to the corral. By turn 42, there are Railway Workers and the odd Whore heading north, towards Sioux territory but nothing is moving east.

A minor problem is that, within the corral, an attack unit that ends up near the southeast end of the corral seems to have no interest in cattle and usually leaves the corral.

The solution would be to have a random turn event (denominator=10?) for each saloon that creates an attack unit in the corral. That would keep the rustling going and provide a bit of cash. However, do you have enough space in the EVENTS file?

I'm not familiar with the intricacies of events, but I wonder if it is worth having a copy for each saloon of the following event?

@IF
UNITKILLED
unit=Rancher
attacker=5 Star Saloon
defender=ANYBODY
@THEN
TEXT
A Rancher has been killed! If the perpetrator keeps doing this the townsfolk will round up a
posse to deliver the guilty party to justice! Lose $100 for having to send men into hiding.
ENDTEXT
CREATEUNIT
unit=Rancher
owner=Sioux Nation
veteran=yes
homecity=NONE
locations
70,58
78,64
74,60
endlocations
CHANGEMONEY
receiver=TRIGGERATTACKER
amount=-100
@ENDIF

What would happen if it was changed to

@IF
UNITKILLED
unit=Rancher
attacker=ANYBODY
defender=ANYBODY
@THEN
TEXT
A Rancher has been killed! If the perpetrator keeps doing this the townsfolk will round up a
posse to deliver the guilty party to justice! Lose $100 for having to send men into hiding.
ENDTEXT
CREATEUNIT
unit=Rancher
owner=Sioux Nation
veteran=yes
homecity=NONE
locations
70,58
78,64
74,60
endlocations
CHANGEMONEY
receiver=ANYBODY
amount=-100
@ENDIF

I'm not sure if the receiver=ANYBODY will work, but perhaps it is not all that important as the amount of money involved is small. However, removing four of these events may free up enough space to create rustlers on an ongoing basis.

How nasty are the Sioux units? Are they a real pain?

They are both nasty and a pain.

I have avoided them and Nature units like the plague. If a Prospector sees a Sioux Warrior or a Grizzly, he and his donkey RUN! A couple of the opposition's Prospectors have not been as astute and have had their scalps lifted by Sioux Riders.

Right now the three Prospectors and two Whores in Sioux territory are managing to stay alive but, as the number of hostiles increases, I will try to replace Prospectors with US Cav Mounted, a unit that can fight off hostiles as well as prospect.

How are the special units, Butch Cassidy, Calamity Jane, etc... working? Do they show up when their tech is discovered? They should show up only once and be under the civ who discovered the tech first.

Wild Bill Hickock showed up when 5 Star discovered Gambling. It is too early for the others.

Are the city improvements working like they should?

Barracks, City Walls and Courthouse are working OK.

[AGRICOLA]

I got curious about what units would be required to wipe out one of the other saloons, an exercise that requires killing its Boss.

The setup was simple.

Target - Al Seargander (Big Al), fortified in his Golden Nugget Saloon
Saloon Improvements - Old Irish Boxer and Armed Bouncer (Barracks and City Walls)

Attackers A - 60 vet US Cav Mounted, arguably the best unit that is available in numbers.

Results:
Attack1 - 28 cavalry were lying on the ground before Big Al croaked.
Attack2 - 60 cavalry did their Balaclava act but Big Al was still on his feet (1 HP), cursing all his enemies.


Attackers B - 1 vet Wild Bill Hickok and 9 clones
Attack1 - 6 Wild Bills lay in the dust before Big Al gave up the ghost.
Attack2 - 3 Wild Bills needed coffins before Al did.

Conclusions:
1. The number of bodies depended on how soon Big Al got vet status.
2. For all intents and purposes, it is impossible to kill another saloon.

[Mercator]

I'm probably a bit late with this, but you might want to check out the Great Library for all sorts of details on game mechanics.

This page deals with unit bribe cost (and al other dip/spy activities):

http://home.tiscali.cz:8080/~cz045662/civ2/dipspy.htm

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by AGRICOLA
Regarding rustling, N35t0r is right in that you need attack role units in the corral. Both Scouts and Railway Men rustle cattle. The first problem is that none of these units can long survive attacks by respawning ranchers.

The second problem is that there is no movement of units from Gold Gulch to the corral. By turn 42, there are Railway Workers and the odd Whore heading north, towards Sioux territory but nothing is moving east.

A minor problem is that, within the corral, an attack unit that ends up near the southeast end of the corral seems to have no interest in cattle and usually leaves the corral.

The solution would be to have a random turn event (denominator=10?) for each saloon that creates an attack unit in the corral. That would keep the rustling going and provide a bit of cash. However, do you have enough space in the EVENTS file?

I'm not familiar with the intricacies of events, but I wonder if it is worth having a copy for each saloon of the following event?

@IF
UNITKILLED
unit=Rancher
attacker=5 Star Saloon
defender=ANYBODY
@THEN
TEXT
A Rancher has been killed! If the perpetrator keeps doing this the townsfolk will round up a
posse to deliver the guilty party to justice! Lose $100 for having to send men into hiding.
ENDTEXT
CREATEUNIT
unit=Rancher
owner=Sioux Nation
veteran=yes
homecity=NONE
locations
70,58
78,64
74,60
endlocations
CHANGEMONEY
receiver=TRIGGERATTACKER
amount=-100
@ENDIF

What would happen if it was changed to

@IF
UNITKILLED
unit=Rancher
attacker=ANYBODY
defender=ANYBODY
@THEN
TEXT
A Rancher has been killed! If the perpetrator keeps doing this the townsfolk will round up a
posse to deliver the guilty party to justice! Lose $100 for having to send men into hiding.
ENDTEXT
CREATEUNIT
unit=Rancher
owner=Sioux Nation
veteran=yes
homecity=NONE
locations
70,58
78,64
74,60
endlocations
CHANGEMONEY
receiver=ANYBODY
amount=-100
@ENDIF

I'm not sure if the receiver=ANYBODY will work, but perhaps it is not all that important as the amount of money involved is small. However, removing four of these events may free up enough space to create rustlers on an ongoing basis.

- I think the "pop up rustler" idea is a good one. Let me float this idea past everyone: In the open unit slot I drop in Rusty, the old & dirty prospector. Rusty randomly meanders around the map. You "kill" Rusty, he "tells" you where the Dalton gang is (by the corral), and you use the Dalton gang to rustle cattle. Rusty can respawn somewhere near the town so the AI can get a shot at him. I don't necessarily want to just give any players units to accomplish rustling, seeing as the whole idea is for cattle rustling to be a strategic advantage. He who can stay on the top of the mountain is the King of the mountain, so to speak.

As for the event change, it won't work. This is the same problem we had with the Gold Nugget event. The ANYBODY command is interpreted as: Whichever Civ triggers this event first will always exclusively trigger this event. No other Civ can use the trigger after the trigger has been first used.

They are both nasty and a pain.

I have avoided them and Nature units like the plague. If a Prospector sees a Sioux Warrior or a Grizzly, he and his donkey RUN! A couple of the opposition's Prospectors have not been as astute and have had their scalps lifted by Sioux Riders.

Right now the three Prospectors and two Whores in Sioux territory are managing to stay alive but, as the number of hostiles increases, I will try to replace Prospectors with US Cav Mounted, a unit that can fight off hostiles as well as prospect.

-Good!

Wild Bill Hickock showed up when 5 Star discovered Gambling. It is too early for the others.

-Excellent.

Barracks, City Walls and Courthouse are working OK.

-

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
Ok, while Agricola is experimenting with the cattle, what else should be on my to do list? I already have the following:

1) Convert and swap in the sounds

2) Draw the Saloon owners

3) DLL's and spaceship (this will be last)

No other idea, sounds good!

Also, for further playtesting:

1) I need to know if guerilla warfare works. The partisans were replaced by a drunken Mariachi band and should have an event that tells the player what that whole flavor unit is about. Does it work?

I think I remeber from my 1st playtest that it worked!

Not 100% sure, though!

2) How are the special units, Butch Cassidy, Calamity Jane, etc... working? Do they show up when their tech is discovered? They should show up only once and be under the civ who discovered the tech first.

Again, from my 1st playtest, they work OK! I had the complete set, I think! I was way ahead in techs, and bribed the only one I didn't get by tech!

3) How nasty are the Sioux units? Are they a real pain?

Again, on my 1st and 2nd playtest (i.e. NOT with the latest version you just released), they were not a real pain: they only occasionally caught my prospectors who didn't leave the rivers so as to keep a great mobility!

4) Has anyone built any improvements, like street light, liquor, gun nests, or gambling? How are those? Can you build them outside of the city terrain tiles?

Nothing except road and RR, so can't help you there, sorry! But those were buildable on the other tiles too, I think!

5) How are the vermin? Do they act like nukes?

Haven't tried! But I will in my current test (not with the latest version!)

6) Are the city improvements working like they should?

Yes, I think I built them all, and I can't remember any which didn't work!


Now, I'm currently playing with the 2nd to last version you released: do you want me to stop and test the latest, or to go on with that one (which would be faster, as I wouldn't need to restart from scratch...)??

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by Mercator
I'm probably a bit late with this, but you might want to check out the Great Library for all sorts of details on game mechanics.

This page deals with unit bribe cost (and al other dip/spy activities):
http://home.tiscali.cz:8080/~cz045662/civ2/dipspy.htm

I'm going to try out that formula out as soon as I can. Most of what the page says makes sense, but I will have to see how they set up their formula. I might have things arranged differently.

[AGRICOLA]

Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
As for the event change, it won't work. This is the same problem we had with the Gold Nugget event. The ANYBODY command is interpreted as: Whichever Civ triggers this event first will always exclusively trigger this event. No other Civ can use the trigger after the trigger has been first used.

Yes, I tested that, and you're right. So perhaps you might take a hard look at whether the space used by the following event

@IF
UNITKILLED
unit=Gun Boat
attacker=Golden Nugget Saloon
defender=ANYBODY
@THEN
TEXT
A US Gun Boat has been sunk! The military will be sure to float another one down your way...
ENDTEXT
CREATEUNIT
unit=Gun Boat
owner=Sioux Nation
veteran=yes
homecity=NONE
locations
5,85
10,88
6,94
endlocations
@ENDIF

might be put to better use as a place to generate rustlers. IMO, rustling plays a much more important role in the scen than river warfare.

The 5 gunboat events can probably be replaced with a single event that generates a Sioux gunboat either regular or random intervals. The accompanying message would not be necessary.

[Harry Tuttle]

Don't worry, event space isn't that premium anymore. The gunboat is supposed to be a very powerful unit, so there needs to be just one. If the unit was created on a turn interval then there might be a whole armada sailing down the river. I should be able to work something in for the rustler events without sacrificing.

[N35t0r]

Liquour I was only able to build on certain 'town' tiles, but i built lamp post all over the place (and even one to the corral and all the way to the other side of the river, as I don't have any riverside saloons.

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by N35t0r
Liquour I was only able to build on certain 'town' tiles, but i built lamp post all over the place (and even one to the corral and all the way to the other side of the river, as I don't have any riverside saloons.

Ok, good. Lamp posts are roads of course, and they can be built everywhere. Irrigation and mining can be tied to certain terrain types, which is what I wanted to check.

[AGRICOLA]

Have you given any thought to what the D should be for the Bosses? The current D=25 is much too high.

I'm going to try D=8, 1 more than any other human character in the scen. Even that may be too high once a saloon builds City Walls. If the Boss gets vet status, he is D=36 if he is behind Walls. The best vet attacker in the scen has an A=10.

I'm not certain whether it is your intent that the 5 starting saloons cannot be destroyed so that the fighting has to be over newly built ones.

Any suggestions would be welcome before I go after the b******s in Golden Nugget?

[Harry Tuttle]

Hmmm, well, try some siege tactics?

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
I'm going to try out that formula out as soon as I can. Most of what the page says makes sense, but I will have to see how they set up their formula. I might have things arranged differently.

I don't know. I'm trying to get the Great Library formula to work, but I dare to say that it's not correct.

I've done some testing at distances of 15 tiles and under, placing the pioneers directly in line of the capital Sioux city so as to create a long (15, 14, 13...) side with a short side of 1 tile rectangle, as described in the distance measurements. I plugged the values into the formula and no go, nothing matched, even when tested against multiple treasury balances.

Can someone check my computations?

[Harry Tuttle]

Here's the test save.