Gold Gulch Playtest!

[AGRICOLA]

@Harry Tuttle

Here are a few minor items for your attention.

1. Golden Nugget Saloon has 2 funny and completely useless techs at start - Industrialization and Seargander Cunning. These must slow down Golden Nugget research.

2. AI saloons research Gunfire Cover and Rifle Posts. Both are techs that do nothing and lead to nothing.

3. In Cyrion's game, the AI operated Blue Moon Saloon seems to have acquired an 'impassable' as a unit. I only mention this because it might be an indicator of a problem of some sort.

4. Would the ranchers in the corral look better if they were on horseback? They do move fast and no self-respecting rancher should be made to chase rustlers on foot.


5. Now for the messy part. I've noticed that all three types of freshly spawned US units (Infantry, Cav Mounted and Cav Officer) either tend to promptly kill themselves by attacking the nearest mountain or just vanish within two or three turns. I think that I’m correct in thinking that they are equivalent to barbarians in vanilla Civ2. From your comments I would have thought that they are supposed to stay around and continue to be a problem for the saloons.

As it stands, they are spawned so far from Gold Gulch that they pose no threat to the town and are a threat only to other units in the immediate vicinity of ~(4,46) and ~(131,87). This means that only whores who are waiting to bribe them or to bribe Pioneers are at risk.

From what I can tell, their life expectancy is no more than 3 turns, even after I had cheated a barb saloon into existence. I tried spawning them away from mountains so they couldn’t commit suicide but they were all gone within 2 or 3 turns. Also, on the basis of limited testing, if N barb units are created by events during a turn, N-1 units actually appear in some cases. This happens regularly near (4,46) at the beginning of turn 20.

The only positive result I got was when they were spawned within <5 squares of Gold Gulch. Then at least some headed into town and attacked the nearest saloon.

If you want them to be a genuine problem, it may be necessary to change them to Sioux or Nature units and arrange it so that the Sioux or Nature are implacably hostile to all saloons

6. What is a 'Hoople Head"?

[Harry Tuttle]

1. Golden Nugget Saloon has 2 funny and completely useless techs at start - Industrialization and Seargander Cunning. These must slow down Golden Nugget research.

- Industrialization allows for the Golden Nugget to have the Golden Nugget style saloon graphic. In the regular game Industrialization would change a civ's cities to the "red brick" industrialized graphic. The Nugget needs to have this or they would not have the special yellow roofed saloon style.

-Seargander Cunning, I think I remember this right, should be a pre-req to another Golden Nugget specific tech that allows for one of the wonders to be built, I believe something to do with spying. I'll have to check on my home computer before I can get a definate for you.

2. AI saloons research Gunfire Cover and Rifle Posts. Both are techs that do nothing and lead to nothing.

- Not necessarily. I believe these techs allow you to build fortresses.

3. In Cyrion's game, the AI operated Blue Moon Saloon seems to have acquired an 'impassable' as a unit. I only mention this because it might be an indicator of a problem of some sort.

- I'll try and find out where it is on the map tonight. It's a hold over from when I was screwing with the corral. It's probably under a Nature unit.

4. Would the ranchers in the corral look better if they were on horseback? They do move fast and no self-respecting rancher should be made to chase rustlers on foot.

- Wellllllll, yeah, they probably would look better, but I think I'll finish the saloon owners first before I start tweaking the other units.

5. Now for the messy part. I've noticed that all three types of freshly spawned US units (Infantry, Cav Mounted and Cav Officer) either tend to promptly kill themselves by attacking the nearest mountain or just vanish within two or three turns. I think that I’m correct in thinking that they are equivalent to barbarians in vanilla Civ2. From your comments I would have thought that they are supposed to stay around and continue to be a problem for the saloons.

As it stands, they are spawned so far from Gold Gulch that they pose no threat to the town and are a threat only to other units in the immediate vicinity of ~(4,46) and ~(131,87). This means that only whores who are waiting to bribe them or to bribe Pioneers are at risk.

From what I can tell, their life expectancy is no more than 3 turns, even after I had cheated a barb saloon into existence. I tried spawning them away from mountains so they couldn’t commit suicide but they were all gone within 2 or 3 turns. Also, on the basis of limited testing, if N barb units are created by events during a turn, N-1 units actually appear in some cases. This happens regularly near (4,46) at the beginning of turn 20.

The only positive result I got was when they were spawned within <5 squares of Gold Gulch. Then at least some headed into town and attacked the nearest saloon.

If you want them to be a genuine problem, it may be necessary to change them to Sioux or Nature units and arrange it so that the Sioux or Nature are implacably hostile to all saloons

- How expensive are they? I don't necessarily want them invading town all the time. I guess I could just change them over to Sioux and say to hell with the titles. That way they'd stick around. Remember though, they will pop up every so often. As you and the rest of the civs venture out there will be more of a chance that the cavalry will attack your units. I think I will have them pop up on another part of the map. To many people are bribing them early on.

6. What is a 'Hoople Head"?

- I have no idea whatsoever. Al Swearanger on the HBO series "Deadwood" uses the term all the time. It basically equates to idiot, I think. I dunno, it's fun to say.



@Smiley: The T-storms have been changed to air units with 2 range, just like bombers, so they should not occupy cities. This will be changed in the next upload. Hopefully they'll still attack.

As for bribing the T-storms... Well, if I change them to Nature, they attack, and a war is started with nature, then the mountains on the map will become hostile to you. Moving through the hills would take forever and you would probably lose a good amount of units to missteps. I could change them to "destroyed upon attacking", make them 1 range units which will disappear if they don't hit anything. That way there wouldn't really be a chance for anyone to bribe them. But the big question is, will they attack or just sit there... More testing tonight.

[N35t0r]

What about making the mountains air units? (of course, this would avoid them from exerting a ZOC, but i think you only use it for the corrals...)

After a short test, the cavalry doesn't commit suicide against the mountains, but it still wanders around. Perhaps you could add a line of ocean underneath the mountains? (you will need to modify them so that it doesn't get seen, though.

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by N35t0r
What about making the mountains air units? (of course, this would avoid them from exerting a ZOC, but i think you only use it for the corrals...)

After a short test, the cavalry doesn't commit suicide against the mountains, but it still wanders around. Perhaps you could add a line of ocean underneath the mountains? (you will need to modify them so that it doesn't get seen, though.

T-storms made into regular air units. Ocean under the mountains might be a bit drastic.

[Harry Tuttle]

@N35t0r

Ok, did some analysis on the pioneers. The nearest formula I could come up with goes a little something like this:

EDIT: See below posts

Now, the Sioux are a dictatorship in this analysis. I initially used a build cost of 1 and a Sioux Treasury amount increasing by $500 increments. The bribed unit in question was always one tile NE of the Blue Moon Saloon whore in the eastern corridor.

I have included the excel spreadsheet for a source doc.

I will do some more tinkering tonight. I think the "z" and 41 static amounts might be the result of another formula, maybe derived from city distance and/or government. I will test tonight.

EDIT: CHANGED, see below.

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by N35t0r
What about making the mountains air units? (of course, this would avoid them from exerting a ZOC, but i think you only use it for the corrals...)

Wait, forget what I said in the last post, I misunderstood you. The mountains would have to be helicopters as any air unit would eventually run out of gas and crash. I think helicopters exert a ZOC anyways. The reason why the corral works is because every saloon civ is allied with Nature, making ZOC irrelevant.

[Mercator]

Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
Wait, forget what I said in the last post, I misunderstood you. The mountains would have to be helicopters as any air unit would eventually run out of gas and crash.

Not unless you want your mountains to move. A zero-move "bomber" will last forever. That's what people have always used to create impassable terrain.

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by Mercator


Not unless you want your mountains to move. A zero-move "bomber" will last forever. That's what people have always used to create impassable terrain.

No kidding? Well, I will have to try that then.

[N35t0r]

Yeah, that was what i meant. Just change them to air units (0 range or not) and they'll fly forever.

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by N35t0r
Yeah, that was what i meant. Just change them to air units (0 range or not) and they'll fly forever.

sweeet

[AGRICOLA]

Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
How expensive are they?

The cost of bribing a US unit (barbarian) appears to remain constant at $2029. I get the same number at turns 10,20 and 30 in my game and turn 100 in Cyrion's game.

The corresponding figures for bribing a Pioneer are $3540, $2823, $2508 and $7212.

Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
I don't necessarily want them invading town all the time. I guess I could just change them over to Sioux and say to hell with the titles. That way they'd stick around. Remember though, they will pop up every so often. As you and the rest of the civs venture out there will be more of a chance that the cavalry will attack your units.

If they continue to be spawned at the present locations, they may not be that much of a problem.

The ones in the SE corner of the map will take a very long time to reach Gold Gulch, most will probably wander off to where they are a threat only to prospectors. Meanwhile, they remain at risk of being bribed.

The events for spawning US units are in the following sequence:

1. Infantry
2. Cav Mounted
3. Cav Officer
4. Infantry
5. Cav Mounted
6. Cav Officer

1 - 3 are spawned west of town, 4 - 6 in SW corner.

There is an interesting problem with those that spawn west of town. The third unit in the sequence, US Cav Officer, is never spawned. There is nothing wrong with EVENTS.

When I interchanged the positions of 2 and 3, the Cav Mounted in position 3 did not spawn.

When the sequence in the EVENTS file was changed to

4. Infantry
5. Cav Mounted
6. Cav Officer
1. Infantry
2. Cav Mounted
3. Cav Officer

then 6. Cav Officer was not spawned.

Never did figure out what was going on except that barbarian units may be given the number of turns they will live at the time they are created, and the third unit created is assigned 0.

In any event, only 2 units are spawned every 20 turns west of town. They will not pose much of a problem. There are enough defenders to overwhelm them.

Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
I think I will have them pop up on another part of the map. To many people are bribing them early on.

There really aren't that many around. At turn 30, I have a Cav Mounted and at turn ~100, Cyrion has a Cav Mounted and an Inf. Before changing anything, perhaps we should see how bad they really are.

I'm going to change Events so that they are spawned as Sioux units to see what will happen.

[Harry Tuttle]

@Agricola: Looked at the techs you mentioned. Rifle posts should be a prereq for Gunfire Cover. Gunfire Cover should give you the ability to build fortresses. I switched up the order. It will be fixed in the upload.

As for Seargander Cunning, that should be cut off from the tech tree. It was originally a prereq for Saloon Snitch (Marco Polo), but that would have given the Golden Nugget the ability to steal some techs I didn't want stolen. I think I could reinstate it, as a bonus to the Golden Nugget, but I'll have to see what the repercussions are.

[Harry Tuttle]

Just confirmed most of the bribe formula. Distance and govt have nothing to do with the amount. I'll see if city ownership has anything to do with it. EDIT: Nope!

EDIT: Someone give me the following so I can see if it's uniform:

1) Sioux bank amount

2) Pioneer cost

Ok, another edit. Apparently unit cost plays a bigger role. Hold on, let me do a few tests....


EDIT: Correct formula shown in above post. The correct formula is essentially: EDIT: SEE Below

EDIT AGAIN: Crap, just forget the formula. I need to do more testing.........

[Harry Tuttle]

Ok, I think I got it this time:

bribe amount = x((a*z*y)+41)

-> if Sioux Treasury less than or equal to $30,000 then:

bribe amount = x((a*z*y)+41)

-> if Sioux Treasury greater than $30,000 then:

bribe amount = $1708

x = unit cost
y = settler flag (y=1 when unit not settler, y=2 if unit settler)
z = 13.89159
b = Sioux treasury
a = b/500

Now this is just for the Sioux. I tried it on a 5 star whore and I got different numbers. I think tech might have something to do with it. Maybe the number of cities...

[N35t0r]

IIRC, distance from capital does affect brbe cost, but only from 1-15 tiles away from the capital. (further away is the same as the 15th tile).

It was long ago and my memory could be failing me, though.