Gold Gulch Playtest!

[Harry Tuttle]

Ok, Beta 3 Upload.

Changes:

1) Fierce Storms have been given to Nature. Attack downgraded (They killed off one of my saloon owners on the first turn, very random). Also, they have the "killed on attack" flag and 1 range, meaning they are basically missiles. Having them stick around might be a bit of overkill.

2) Saloon owner units have been gievn the x2 Aegis flag and have had their attack upped to 2 from 0.

3) Nature is now at war with all saloons

4) Nature is a Democracy

5) Mountains and Waterfall have been made 0 movement bombers (2 range). Now ground units cannot attack them, even under a state of war.

6) Gunfire Cover and Rifle Posts have been switched on the tech tree. Gunfore cover allows the player to build fortresses (Gun Nests)

7) Wagon Trains have been given the prereq of Prostitution allowing for a stunted start to saloon building at the beginning, making you rely on bribing pioneers.

8) The US Cavalry that is supposed to pop up in the Eastern corridor has been moved father west, delaying any attempts to bribe them early on. Also, they have been given to the Sioux. @Agricola - tell me what you think

9) Graphic update and switch of the Lumber Yard and the Miners camp - Underlying terrain graphic was interfering with the bonus terrain overlayed.

10) As was mentioned, the events have been trimmed down and terrain east of the river has been made into a town.

11) Nature is a Democracy but the Sioux are a dictatorship

12) Sioux Nation is now obsolete with Saloon tech.

13) Probably more, but I can't remember them

Updated Zip at the start of this thread....

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by N35t0r
IIRC, distance from capital does affect brbe cost, but only from 1-15 tiles away from the capital. (further away is the same as the 15th tile).

It was long ago and my memory could be failing me, though.

I know that's with bribing cities... I tried placing a Sioux Pioneer closer to the Sioux cities and the bribe amount was exactly the same as in the Eastern corridor. So I don't think the units are affected by capital distance, but I may be wrong, I didn't check for specific distance.

In my formula for the Pioneer The value of "z" keeps moving in between 13.8 to 14, depending on unit cost and Sioux Treasury. There has got to be some other factor in there affecting the formula. I betcha it has to do with techs acquired. Also, since I only did the test on the first turn of the game, maybe turns elapsed also has something to do with it. Never the less, at least for the Sioux Pioneer, I think I've nailed the formula within a $20 margin of error.

[AGRICOLA]

Update

I'm continuing my game with the following changes
- laborers can be built by all saloons
- US units are now spawned as non-vet Sioux in the west and vet Sioux in the SE.
- Sioux now have Sole Proprietor government
-to level the playing field, I will continue to build saloons only with bribed units.

- The Sioux treasury has $3051 and bribe costs are
Pioneers – 2532
US units – 10,444 (I believe, as a consequence of unit cost = 990 shlds; cost might be reduced to a more reasonable 300 - 400 shlds )
Sioux Riders – definitely recommended as a BEST BUY at a mere $949 for a unit that can both fight and move like a bat out of hell.

I’ve done a bit of testing. Spawning US units as Sioux might work. The ones from the southeast do move west but will require at least 50 turns to reach Gold Gulch. The ones spawned west of town also move towards Gold Gulch, but when they try to attack a saloon, they lose. I’ve reduced them to non-vet in order to make it a bit easier on the defenders.

As a curiosity, when the events creating the three units west of town were changed so that the US units were created as Sioux, all three units appeared. Therefore, the systematic absence of unit 3 in mentioned in my previous post definitely appears to be caused by spawning the units as barbarians.

EDIT: Cross post

@Harry Tuttle
I will download your latest and start again, playing it without any of my changes. In my humble opinion, you have worked wonders in altering so much in such a short time.

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by AGRICOLA
Update

I'm continuing my game with the following changes
- laborers can be built by all saloons
- US units are now spawned as non-vet Sioux in the west and vet Sioux in the SE.
- Sioux now have Sole Proprietor government
-to level the playing field, I will continue to build saloons only with bribed units.

- The Sioux treasury has $3051 and bribe costs are
Pioneers – 2532
US units – 10,444 (I believe, as a consequence of unit cost = 990 shlds; cost might be reduced to a more reasonable 300 - 400 shlds )
Sioux Riders – definitely recommended as a BEST BUY at a mere $949 for a unit that can both fight and move like a bat out of hell.

I’ve done a bit of testing. Spawning US units as Sioux might work. The ones from the southeast do move west but will require at least 50 turns to reach Gold Gulch. The ones spawned west of town also move towards Gold Gulch, but when they try to attack a saloon, they lose. I’ve reduced them to non-vet in order to make it a bit easier on the defenders.

As a curiosity, when the events creating the three units west of town were changed so that the US units were created as Sioux, all three units appeared. Therefore, the systematic absence of unit 3 in mentioned in my previous post definitely appears to be caused by spawning the units as barbarians.

@Harry Tuttle
I will download your latest and start again. In my humble opinion, you have worked wonders in changing so much in such a short time.

Cool, DL the latest. I think you're right on the cavalry units. I did notice that they didn't all appear in threes, but I didn't think much of it.

I just inputted your numbers for the pioneers. The newest formula computed the bribe cost within $6 with the pioneers costing 12 as was the norm before.

And thank you. I spend my time working, working on my new addition to the house, and working on this scenario. I try to keep the changes coming as best I can and I'd just like to thank you and all the other playtesters. I could not have made this scenario better without everyones help. It it much appreciated. Now, for my next task, I think I should find a girlfriend.

[N35t0r]

One minor nitpick:

The saloon size tags overlay the 'star' badge that represents city walls in some cases. Off the top of my head, i can only remember size 8 blue civ's saloons having this problem

[AGRICOLA]

The following list of comments, observations, nitpicks and suggestions is in no particular order. I just took them from my weekly operational summary and edited them slightly. (Note: 1 week = 1 turn)

1. Change width of @REPORTFOREIGN in the GAME file from 580 to 780. This lets players with 17” or larger screens see the entire descripion of each saloon. I don’t think that such a change will hurt anyone playing with a laptops or a smaller screen.

2. Why does Double Diamond start with 2 Prospectors? All other saloons have only one. That is a considerable advantage for Double Diamond.

3. Change name of Gunboat to US Gunboat for consistency. Also, FYI, a Gunboat has been killing Double Diamond Irish Boxers for the last 6 turns (and still counting) and only now is showing a red health bar. Obviously not a unit to be treated lightly.

4. The following event may be boosting bribe costs a bit too much.

@IF
RANDOMTURN
denominator=5
@THEN
CHANGEMONEY
receiver=Sioux Nation
amount=1000
@ENDIF

Week 22 a Pioneer cost $3420 to bribe (Sioux treasury = $4393) but by week 32 the price had increased to $4380 (Sioux treasury = $5822).

There seems to be a weekly decrease of $30-70 in the Sioux treasury (rush buying?) while the event adds ~ $333 per week (I'm assuming that denominator=5 means that, on the average, the event will occur every 3 weeks). This may be a bit too much. Week 32, the amounts in the various treasuries were:

Blue Moon – 5817
Golden Nugget – 0
Double Diamond – 3722
5 Star – 1791
Royale Inn - 1651

None of the AI saloons can bribe a Pioneer. I suspect that if Double Diamond had not started out with 2 Prospector, it also would have less than $2000.


Consequently, week 35 I made the following changes to EVENTS:

@IF
RANDOMTURN
denominator=5
@THEN
CHANGEMONEY
receiver=Sioux Nation
amount=300
@ENDIF

I also changed the Sioux treasury from $7521 to $4000.

The price of bribes had become impossibly high for AI saloons.
Pioneer – 5508, US unit – 4590, Sioux Rider – 2065

Bribes are now:
Pioneer – 3156, US unit – 2630, Sioux Rider – 1183

This may still be too high for AI saloons, but I don’t want to make it too easy for human player.

5. By week 35, the cattle rustling is still a no go, even for a human player. Though I know how to locate and block spawning locations without cheating, I do not intend to tackle this source of funds until whores have managed to bribe a couple of Sioux Warriors who can ride rings around the ranchers. The AI saloons have also not been successful at rustling. I think that it is too bad that this very original idea is getting no use.

6. The new versions of US units seem to be working quite well. When they get into town, they do destroy weak units, mainly Irish Boxers, that are in the open but get killed when they attack a saloon. As long as the Boss is around, the saloon is in no danger. However, the steady stream of US units from the southeast makes building new saloons across the river in Squattertown a very interesting adventure.

7. By week 35 there have been two cycles of global warming (without terrain changes). I have taken the liberty of attaching a copy of the Gold Gulch.scn file in your latest download , edited to prevent terrain changes when global warming occurs. If there is a later version, I can do a quick fix if you either attach it to a post or e-mail it to me. Future Gold Gulch downloads would no longer have global warming to cause problems for playtesters.

[Harry Tuttle]

1. Change width of @REPORTFOREIGN in the GAME file from 580 to 780. This lets players with 17” or larger screens see the entire descripion of each saloon. I don’t think that such a change will hurt anyone playing with a laptops or a smaller screen.

-Ok, changed. Thank you.

2. Why does Double Diamond start with 2 Prospectors? All other saloons have only one. That is a considerable advantage for Double Diamond.

-Westernmost prospector eliminated. I'd also like to draw attention to that fact that DDiamond has a raft to start out with owing to its position between the other saloons and the river.

3. Change name of Gunboat to US Gunboat for consistency. Also, FYI, a Gunboat has been killing Double Diamond Irish Boxers for the last 6 turns (and still counting) and only now is showing a red health bar. Obviously not a unit to be treated lightly.

-Lowered its defense to 4 and I would keep it just "Gunboat" as the saloons can research for it.

4. The following event may be boosting bribe costs a bit too much.

@IF
RANDOMTURN
denominator=5
@THEN
CHANGEMONEY
receiver=Sioux Nation
amount=1000
@ENDIF

Week 22 a Pioneer cost $3420 to bribe (Sioux treasury = $4393) but by week 32 the price had increased to $4380 (Sioux treasury = $5822).

There seems to be a weekly decrease of $30-70 in the Sioux treasury (rush buying?) while the event adds ~ $333 per week (I'm assuming that denominator=5 means that, on the average, the event will occur every 3 weeks). This may be a bit too much. Week 32, the amounts in the various treasuries were:

Blue Moon – 5817
Golden Nugget – 0
Double Diamond – 3722
5 Star – 1791
Royale Inn - 1651

None of the AI saloons can bribe a Pioneer. I suspect that if Double Diamond had not started out with 2 Prospector, it also would have less than $2000.

Consequently, week 35 I made the following changes to EVENTS:

@IF
RANDOMTURN
denominator=5
@THEN
CHANGEMONEY
receiver=Sioux Nation
amount=300
@ENDIF

I also changed the Sioux treasury from $7521 to $4000.

The price of bribes had become impossibly high for AI saloons.
Pioneer – 5508, US unit – 4590, Sioux Rider – 2065

Bribes are now:
Pioneer – 3156, US unit – 2630, Sioux Rider – 1183

This may still be too high for AI saloons, but I don’t want to make it too easy for human player.

-Changed to $300! Thanks, I didn't know if the Sioux would have enough cash due to their low level terrain cities so I just set it at a random number.

5. By week 35, the cattle rustling is still a no go, even for a human player. Though I know how to locate and block spawning locations without cheating, I do not intend to tackle this source of funds until whores have managed to bribe a couple of Sioux Warriors who can ride rings around the ranchers. The AI saloons have also not been successful at rustling. I think that it is too bad that this very original idea is getting no use.

-Ranchers given a movement of 1 (with alpine), instead of 2 (with alpine). I don't want to make it to easy early on as the Saloons will be able to research for mounted gun men later in the game, opening up the corral. If someone wants to rush in with a couple dozen irish boxers then more power to them When the update gets posted try out the new movements for the rancher. If the AI is still not attacking then I suggest we think about making up a seperate SP and MP version.

6. The new versions of US units seem to be working quite well. When they get into town, they do destroy weak units, mainly Irish Boxers, that are in the open but get killed when they attack a saloon. As long as the Boss is around, the saloon is in no danger. However, the steady stream of US units from the southeast makes building new saloons across the river in Squattertown a very interesting adventure.

-Awesome. As it should be.

7. By week 35 there have been two cycles of global warming (without terrain changes). I have taken the liberty of attaching a copy of the Gold Gulch.scn file in your latest download , edited to prevent terrain changes when global warming occurs. If there is a later version, I can do a quick fix if you either attach it to a post or e-mail it to me. Future Gold Gulch downloads would no longer have global warming to cause problems for playtesters.

-I will email you the latest when it's time for a new update. I usually just go off of one save and leave the global warming for last, but if you could do it for me that would be great.

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by N35t0r
One minor nitpick:

The saloon size tags overlay the 'star' badge that represents city walls in some cases. Off the top of my head, i can only remember size 8 blue civ's saloons having this problem

I'll take a look. I think the light blue dot takes care of the size tags.

[AGRICOLA]

Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
Ranchers given a movement of 1 (with alpine), instead of 2 (with alpine). I don't want to make it to easy early on as the Saloons will be able to research for mounted gun men later in the game, opening up the corral. If someone wants to rush in with a couple dozen irish boxers then more power to them When the update gets posted try out the new movements for the rancher. If the AI is still not attacking then I suggest we think about making up a seperate SP and MP version.

Sorry, I'm a bit confused by 'If the AI is still not attacking'. Are you referring to ranchers attacking saloon units or saloon units trying to get themselves a steak dinner?

There is no problem with the ranchers not attacking saloon units. A Golden Nugget Irish boyo fortified itself near the northern exit during turn2. Every few turns since then it has been attacked by a rancher and there has been a message that another rancher has bit the dust. The $100 deductions have definitely affected everyone's treasuries.

The saloon units have not tried rustling.

The spawned Pioneers have not left the spawning area. I've had a whore stationed there since the beginning and have watched them mill around.

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by AGRICOLA


Sorry, I'm a bit confused by 'If the AI is still not attacking'. Are you referring to ranchers attacking saloon units or saloon units trying to get themselves a steak dinner?

There is no problem with the ranchers not attacking saloon units. A Golden Nugget Irish boyo fortified itself near the northern exit during turn2. Every few turns since then it has been attacked by a rancher and there has been a message that another rancher has bit the dust. The $100 deductions have definitely affected everyone's treasuries.

The saloon units have not tried rustling.

The spawned Pioneers have not left the spawning area. I've had a whore stationed there since the beginning and have watched them mill around.

Ok, so you're saying it's not an issue of the saloon units getting to the cows because of the ranchers. You're saying that once the saloon units get to the cows they aren't attacking them period.

[Harry Tuttle]

Ok, how about this. In order to make the T-storms attack I upped the unit cost of the saloon owners making them more valuable. If I up the value of the stears then the AI might atack them more frequently.

[Harry Tuttle]

Also, I'm giving all the Sioux cities palaces through the utility program CivCity so that the cities cannot be bribed as the Sioux are not a Democracy.

[AGRICOLA]

Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
Ok, so you're saying it's not an issue of the saloon units getting to the cows because of the ranchers. You're saying that once the saloon units get to the cows they aren't attacking them period.

Exactly. There were 5 Irish Boxers in the corral at the start. Blue Moon's pulled out. The ranchers have killed two. The remaining two have been sitting there since week 2, fortified and doing nothing even when there are steers within a couple of squares. Maybe units with better attack numbers would be more active. I'm going to experiment a bit with that idea.

[N35t0r]

Units with the attack role (instead of defense )

[AGRICOLA]

Got it.

Scouts are much better rustlers than are Irish Boxers. However, one still moved out of the corral after riding around for 10 or so turns.

Thanks for the explanation.