NEW Civ2 Tournament August 16 - September 14, 2004 : SPOILER Thread

[solo]

Well, my inquisitive diplomats let me know that Canton was the only remaining city having walls, and after putting 20 dragoons around the city (I was determined to take at least 1 walled city by force), only 5 were needed to take it.

There were only 4 respawns in my game, and each one was quite easy to reach and kill, since the last 3 were all on the same convenient mini continent just west of the Chinese (not really an island, since there was a connection to the South Pole).

Sorry LaFayette, but this allowed me to finish right at 1000 AD. I think if I had not relied on bribes and if I had had an equal number of respawns, I would have taken at least 20 more turns to finish. I also got quite an accidental advantage when the Japanese destroyed the Germans early on, causing the first respawn. I was also fortunate that none of the AI built the Great Wall.

Looking back, I think I could have improved by building the Lighthouse and more triremes instead of Sun Tzu's. During the game, I was always wishing I could get all of my attackers to their targets much quicker than I actually did. The Lighthouse and more ships would have helped out here. In contrast, all my veteran knights turned into rookie dragoons, which sort of wasted the benefits of Sun Tzu.

Happiness was a problem, but was not unmanageable. I just used a lot of small cities, so it didn't matter if a few became useless. Unit support problems were easily solved once I started capturing AI cities. I could use these cities to support recovering attackers, freeing up shields in my home cities to increase their rates of production.

In sum, I was greatly encouraged with this Invention-Chivalry strategy, since it produces a big army very cheaply and in a more timely fashion than the Monotheism-Crusader system. The amount of research needed is about the same and things are quite manageable without Michaelangelo's. With a good chance of dragoons in time to be of real use, I'd say one's odds are best by doing things this way.

However, I have another new strategy I'd like to try if we play another game after this one. I'd like to see how early a conquest is possible while playing using LaFayette's self-imposed restrictions. Eliminating bribery does make a huge difference in how quickly one can capture well defended AI cities, and I'm still very impressed with LaFayette's great result.

Attached is the save made at 1000 AD. More details later.

[Bloody Monk]

Great result, and I now see what you meant by HG over MPE. It becomes essential for this ICS approach. I don't think often enough to use that approach. Your cities are so lean and economical with total focus on unit production. It's quite marvellous to look upon and contemplate.

I hope there are more of these just to see what you, and the other Magnificent Marauders, will do next.

Monk

[solo]

Log of Conquest Win – 1000 AD

Here is the sequence of events. See previous posts for more details and discussion of the game.

3900 Athens, Sparta
3750 Alphabet
3600 hut – archer
3550 Code of Laws
3250 Thermopylae
3150 Map Making
2950 Mongols – trade for Ceremonial Burial, allows earlier acquisition of Monarchy
2800 Corinth
2650 Monarchy, Mongols – trade for Bronze Working, Masonry, hut – Pottery
2550 hut – nomads
2400 Delphi
2300 Pharsalos
2100 Currency
2050 Knossus, hut – Construction
1900 Japanese – trade for Horseback Riding, share maps; Mongols – give tech, share maps
1800 hut – barbs
1600 Trade, Argos
1400 Mycenae
1300 Hanging Gardens, Chinese – trade for Writing, share maps, 50g tribute;
Mongols – tech, 100g; Japanese – tech, maps, 75g

1100 The Wheel
1000 hut – elephant
950 Marco Polo’s Embassy, hut – nomads, Germans – tech, maps;
Russians – trade for Warrior Code, maps, 250g; Japanese – tech, maps, 150g

925 Germans destroyed by the Japanese; Spanish – tech, maps, 250g
900 Respawn #1 – Vikings, Herakleia, hut – barbs
875 exploring horseman killed by barbs
825 Ephesos, Chinese – tech, maps, 50g
800 hut – barbs
775 barbs kill horseman, Literacy
750 barb horseman bribed, 41g; Mongols – tech, 100g
725 hut – horseman
600 hut – 25g
575 Spanish – tech, maps 50g; Thessalonia; Vikings – tech, maps
550 Russians – tech, maps, 100g
475 Rhodes
450 bribe Spanish settler, 252g; Chinese – 150g
425 Spanish – tech, maps; bribe Mongol archer, 156g
400 sneak attack by Mongols, hut – Feudalism, Eretria; Japanese – tech, maps, 100g
375 bribe Mongol horseman, 285g, hut – Invention
325 dye(d) to Osaka, 24g (trading is a waste of time)
300 Leonardo’s Workshop, Spanish – 125g
275 bribe Mongol chariot, 262g
250 bribe Mongol phalanx, 293g
225 Japanese capture Kiev; Spanish – 50g; Mongol archer bribed, 222g

My horsemen around Karakorum were living off these bribes, waiting to become knights.

175 Chinese – 150g
125 Chivalry, 44 horsemen upgraded to knights; Karakorum taken, 73g plunder;
Chinese – trade for Iron Working;
Vikings, Japanese & Spanish – tech, maps;
Russians – tech, maps, 50g

100 bribe Mongol phalanx, 46g (cheaper now with capital gone!)
75 Troy

AD years

1 Vikings – 50g; Bokhara bribed - 171g
40 Smarakand destroyed, 9g
80 Nishapur bribed, 54g, Mongols destroyed – no respawn; Spanish – 75g; Japanese – tech, maps

100 Japanese – 100g; Marathon
120 Sun Tzu’s Academy, hut – Halicarnassus
160 Edo taken, 7g, Mysticism
200 Kyoto taken, 7g, Polytheism
220 Spanish – 50g
260 Gunpowder; Chinese, Spanish – tech, maps; Vikings – 50g
280 Russians – war
300 Osaka taken, 11g, Republic; Tsingtao taken, 10g, Banking
320 Berlin bribed, 330g; Russians take Halicarnassus, Gunpowder, oops!
360 Madrid taken, 10g, Mathematics
440 St. Petersburg taken, 45g
460 Seville taken, 11g, Astronomy
480 Moscow destroyed, 15g; 150g from Russians for cease fire
500 As for now 12 cities taken, 14 or more to go, I have 57 knights, 28 musketeers, 9 triremes, and a partially completed road south

520 Kiev taken, 20g; Japanese destroyed
540 Respawn #2 – Babylonians; Toledo taken, 15g
580 Leadership, all knights promoted to dragoons
600 Nanking destroyed, 2g;
Cordoba bribed for only 232g after loosing about 7 knights against its walls
Babylonian settler destroyed

620 Respawn #3 – Zulus settler at same spot, destroyed immediately;
Valencia taken, 17g; barb leader, 50g

640 Saragossa taken, 8g
660 Salamanca taken, 8g
700 Barcelona bribed, 330g
720 Vikings – trade for Bridge Building, Philosophy, maps
760 Shanghai taken, 19g
780 Vikings – 100g
800 Smolensk taken, 23g
860 Valladoid taken, 13g; Spanish destroyed;
Trondheim taken, 25g; Vikings destroyed, neither color respawns

900 Minsk taken, Russians destroyed, Canton taken, 36g
920 Respawn #4 – Celts, Celts – tech, maps;
Beijing taken, 28g
940 Monotheism; Cengdu taken, 12g;
Chinese destroyed, no respawn
1000 Celts destroyed, no respawn, no AI left; conquest win with score of 1838, 238%

[MarkG]

solo, please add your game on the hof

http://apolyton.net/hof/tournament.php?s=&action=showtournament&hofid=53

[La Fayette]

Congrats

First 1000AD conquest of all times with DRAGOONS, I suppose

[La Fayette]

"Benevolent Dave", who is so clever at making happy those double unhappy citizens, is the one who will most probably manage to beat the 1000AD milestone.

(... unless samson or zenon post some amazing post before the 14th, not to forget SlowThinker ... but he has played so few games to the end ... )

[solo]

I consider LaFayette's result, without bribery, to be the better achievement. His experience playing all those scenarios really shows.

My estimate is that for each city that is bribed, at least 3 or 4 turns are saved, since that is about how long it would take to move enough attackers into position to capture bribed cities by force. In my own game I bribed something like 6 to 8 cities. For larger AI cities located away from most of the others, such as Berlin, I'd bet it would take an extra 6 or 7 turns. Add all these delays to my game, and I may be having trouble getting the job done before 1500.

I'd like to see another game without bribery, so as to better compare the effectiveness of our different strategies.

[Scouse Gits]

Many congratulations ...
Yet another PhD in Civ!!!!!

Stu

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

A poor effort..

OK, I'm rusty.

Situation at 1500:



1500: OK, I'm too far behind for an early landing, and trading doesn't seem to pay. Back to a war footing! Mongols offer 400 g for a cease fire - accepted, and peace made. We fully expect to break this treaty in short order.
1540: Form Monarchy
1550: Marco Polo's Embassy in Corinth. Embassies all around, tech gifting and swapping indiscriminately, maps with all. Of note: tribute demanded of Germans, and they cough up 850 g. War provoked with Mongols; walls down in Karakorum, Karakorum captured, 31 g.
1560: Samarkand bribed for 165 g, Mongols eliminated.
1590: Magellan's Expedition in Athens.
1600: Spanish cancel alliance.
1620: 300 g extorted from Japanese for peace.
1630: Spanish declare war; Malaga rebels for 212 g. Spanish pay 150 g for peace.
1640: Russians declare war.
1650: Hangchow subverted from Chinese for 398 g, netting Feudalism.
1670: Edo rebels for 520 g. Russians declare war, again.
1680: Kyoto falls.
1690: Statue of Liberty in Corinth.
1700: Fundamentalism formed.
1710: Tsingtao subverted for 362 g, netting Gunpowder. We note that the Russians are busy learning Metallurgy, which will obsolete their Great Wall. Osaka revolts for 265 g, Japanese eliminated.
1730: Xinjian revolts for 260 g.
1752: Heidelburg bribed for 420 g.
1754: Cordoba falls.
1756: Shanghai bribed for 826 g.
1764: Madrid with Lighthouse, Oracle and Copernicus captured.
1766: Seville revolts for 366 g. Canton falls.
1770: Valladolid falls, Salamanca rebels for 402 g.
1772: Beijing falls with Great Library and Sun Tzu's War Academy, Chinese eliminated. Barcelona revolts for 260 g, Saragossa revolts for 252 g.
1774: Communism formed (it seems the Russians will never learn Metallurgy!). Granada revolts for 310 g.
1776: Satsuma falls, netting Metallurgy from Russians (which they naturally discovered after my revolt!). Tientsin revolts for 261 g.
1782: Toledo revolts for 480 g.
1786: Chengdu destroyed.
1788: Novgorod captured. Hamburg bribed for 312 g.
1794: Valencia captured.
1796: Berlin and Pyramids fall.
1798: Avila captured, Spanish eliminated.
1800: Leipzig revolts for 455 g. Kagoshima falls.
1804: Konigsberg captured, Germans eliminated.
1808: Sverdlovsk captured.
1814: Tblisi captured.
1824: Yakutsk captured.
1826: Odessa captured.
1830: Vladivostok captured. Smolensk captured. St. Petersburg captured.
1834: Kiev captured.
1838: Vigo destroyed.
1840: Sevastopol captured. Minsk captured.
1842: Moscow and King Richard's Crusade captured. Russians eliminated. Rhodes founded.

Game over! At least I wasn't in the 1 yr/turn phase yet

[Peaster]

There are some pretty impressive players in this game!

I took a look at Solo's save for clues about how such an amazing (at least to me) conquest is possible. It appears the cities produced about 5000-6000 shields, with about 80% going into units, and about 20% into Wonders, and none into city improvements. Wow, no temples or barracks!? Or were they built and later sold?

Is that a standard idea in conquest games - to put almost all production into units?

I tried it myself and it worked OK, at least for a while. Probably it's unrelated to this strategy - but my advances slowed to 1/26 turns about the time the Mongols respawned. Or maybe it was when I built MPE? Anyway, I couldn't seem to fix it with gifts (maybe I better go back to the Great Library about that) and I soon got bogged down fighting pikemen with elephants. I finished around 1800 AD (again).

It's probably a good thing I didn't try for Solo's clever Chivalry/Leonardo idea with such poor science ability!

For some reason, I can't download Scouse Gits' game, but I'd like to see that too.

[Scouse Gits]

My save

It DLed from polly OK for me ...
Here it is ...

[solo]

Peaster,

That's right, no temples or barrracks. All production went into units and wonders.

Research can be improved by not trading for techs that are not along the desired path. You can also gift techs to the key (purple) civ to help reduce research costs. When the Mongols respawned, research costs will go way up until you can find and gift tech to the new purple civ.

Very early in the game, I place initial cities carefully to maximize trade arrow production, to improve research so as to get to Monarchy and following techs earlier. In my save you'll see how the first few cities are placed to do this. They are also close together to reduce corruption and are all connected very early by roads or rivers so that units can be shifted around quickly and easily to adjust support or enforce happiness.

The main thing slowing down research is when you cross over the 20 tech threshold, when research costs go way up. It's very easy to pick up unneeded techs unless you are focused on sticking to your plan of research. This is why only essential techs are acquired, to make progress towards the desired combination go quicker. I needed 19 techs to get to Invention-Chivalry, so had one to spare, which allowed me to take some risks.

Later in the game, when you start taking AI cities, doing so quickly adds more cities and their beakers to your total keeping research times at around 15 turns per tech. I used a lot of bribing early on to facilitate this.

[Scouse Gits]

Well, my inquisitive diplomats let me know that Canton was the only remaining city having walls

Silly question - how and / or why do you use Diplos to do this?

Stu

[Scouse Gits]

solo - I have just had a look at your final save -- isn't it remarkable how different the development of the AI is between you map & my own!

What a great game you had!

Stu

[solo]

Stu,

Yes, it's amazing how differently things go using the same start. After a game, I'll often replay it later in order to try out a new idea or two, and will be amazed at how differently things progress and how the AI develop. Their actions and interactions are randomized enough to make every game come out quite different!

This also explains why the preferred respawn area differed in our games. City placements were quite different.

Not a silly question about diplos, who are usually wasted when using their "investigate city" option, but I had spare diplos near each big city near the end when I was feeling obliged to capture remaining cities by force.

I must ask LaFayette whether he uses diplomats to help get military units around enemy unit zones of control, or whether he manages without using this trick, too.