The Dance of Civilizations [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread Pt1]

[Russia (DoC)]

Here is what we can do. Load the previous turn, log into my civ, look at where my troops where the turn BEFORE the attack. That way it is easily provable that I did not make a double move to make use of any tactical advantage.

I may have been hasty, but I could just as well not have played the previous turn, all I did was wait for some troops to be finished.

And had I known that the Arabs and Ottomans were allied I would have DoW'ed on them too so I could blockade them and make sure they could make no trouble. I can't seem to have found any official military alliance announcement between Ottoman and Arabia in recent posts. Are really alliances 3000 years long?



As for turn order, I guess I was not well enough aware of the ruleset. But if I had NOT played my previous turn, could I then be first? Cause I would be fine with that.

[Robert]

The rule is based on turn order. Not on unit movements.
To warrant to both parties that no party will make double moves with units, it's forbidden to play two turns in a row without your enemy playing his turn in between.

[Orb (DoC)]

Is the game still paused? Does the Ottoman player even know he is at war?

[Robert]

This is a bit an uneasy situation, but nobody did this on purpose. I'm sure we can get a way out.

@Russia: I understand what you're saying. It's just too hard to judge on unit-by-unit level what unit did and what unit did not double move. Perhaps not for you, but it is for the rest of the players. If we go that way, it can easily be exploited or manipulated.

that's why there's this generic double move rule.
And I do understand that it hits you hard now, but that's not something you can blame the ottomans for.

But maybe the Ottomans will accept the situation, especially since they got a bit of an advantage b/c they subbed for Arabia and got some info they would not have had without it.
(though keep in mind; the Arabs and the Ottomans were allied already, the real Arabs may also have told the Ottomans about your fleet, especially since this war did not surprise anybody)

But I agree that the Ottoman player cannon continue to sub for Arabia now.
I suggest that the Ottoman player suggests a sub for Arabia that's neutral in this conflict.

Let's all please stay calm here!
And let's trust each other. We're all honest players.

[Byzantium (DoC)]

Damn - I see what you Robert about the double move. Russia - the issue is the rules says the order in the turn before the war needs to be observed so you can't move troops to the border and then attack without the opponent having the chance to respond.

Regarding the Ottoman sub, I am very hestitant. Yes of course the sub arrangement cannot mean that Arabia has to do nothing but 'ally' can be mean lots of things, but more importantly, you cannot have two opponents controlled by the same person. That is just unfair. So before any Arabian involvement the Arabian player would have to change. There is a massive tactical advantage to one mind controlling both nations involved in a war.

[Russia (DoC)]

I did not make a double move!

My ships were loaded several turns prior, and waiting in position for several turns within range. Only on the newest turn when I was otherwise ready did I move them. Including the declaration of war. Arabia (sic) should be able to confirm that I had a large fleet stationed outside his borders within range of the Ottoman island. Also, I suspect Persia should be able to tell that I had a fleet stationed within range of Mehmed for several turns.

I logged in to play my turn this morning, saw that there was only 30 mins left on the timer and played the other turn after breakfeast... I made no MOVES on the 1360 turn that would give me any advantage. As I said, everything was in place, no move was made to gain any movement advantage.

As for Ottoman secretly playing Arabia... that is just ridiculous! I have had a large fleet stationed for 2-3 turns within range of his island outside Arabia's border, so that the Ottoman player should not be able to see it. If I had known that Arabia was played by Ottoman I would have made VERY different plans for my troop placements.

I will NOT accept Ottoman playing Arabia also.


EDIT: Note that ALL my attacks were AMPHIBIOUS ASSAULTS! For the reason that I did not want to allow him to reinforce his underdefended cities through a siege. I did not land troops on his land the first turn, I declared war and made all moves on the last turn.

And regarding burning Mehmed... I don't think I can be guaranteed that my amphibious invasion would go so well again if we reload. Though I would have burned it, yes.

[Robert]

For the record; Arabia and the Ottomans were allies already. It's not prohibited on before hand that Arabia may not intervene b/c it's being subbed by the Ottomans.

but if that happens, it may be better if the Ottomans hand the Arabia subbing over to someone else.

[Robert]

We have a problem. Russia made a double move.
Russia was the last to play the 1360 turn and first to play the 1365 turn.

In 1365 Russia declared war. The 1365 turn order should be the same for Russia/Ottomans as the 1360 turn order.

I'm going to try to pause the game using my cell phone.
In fact I see no other solution except loading the beginning of this turn again, but let's discuss this first with both Russia and the Ottomans.

This is what the rules say:

03. Civilizations that are at war or want to declare war have to observe the turn order which is set the turn before the war starts.
Thus: no double moves during wartime or when declaring war.

[Byzantium (DoC)]

Agree. There are good reasons for not wanting others to know you are 'away from your desk', but if you are arranging an in-game sub I think the need for others to know that outweighs a desire to keep your absence quiet.

[India (DoC)]

I agree , when a perm player subs for an other it always should be announced/written in the names. In other cases it's not that important, actually it may help us keeping the anonimity.

[Robert]

I think we should make a difference between an in-game sub (like Ottomans for Arabia) or a not-involved sub (like Ozzy for Rome).
The first should indeed be made known. (login like: "Arabia -sub by Ott") but for Ozzy-like-subs I don't see the need to make it known.

In some cases a civ prefers to make it not known to others that he's not there.

[Byzantium (DoC)]

Wow that is serious news that Arabia is being subbed for by the Ottomans.

Very very important in this current situation - I was about to write to the Arabians with whom i have good relations in words I might not have used to the Ottomans. So thanks RMP for the info, but it highlights why we need these subs to be public.

What if the Russians had written to the Arabs two turns ago asking for aid/non-involvement in the war not knowing that the Ottomans are subbing.

(Well I suppose by subbing it migth not mean having access to the PM).

Definitely no criticism of anyone, but it does highlight that we need to be clear about in-game subs because you never know when a war will come.

[Korea (DoC)]

itohught apolyton was greek word....


markus the original owner would freka it now being called duthc

[Robert]

And for the record, English is a dutch dialect.
We founded New York. The dollar is just a translation of the dutch daalder. Santa Claus comes from Sinterklaas and Our King William (2nd or 3rd) was also King of England.

We're just a very humble nation and gave independancy to both GB and the US.
And for crying out loud, even Apolyton is a dutch site

[Robert]

Turn timer has been extended into 22h (24h eff.) again.
I'll monitor this turn to see if the Ottomans are in time to play their turn.

For the record: Arabia is being subbed by the Ottomans. I was already aware of that. Now the Ottomans are at war it's good to make this known.

The Arabia player is on a small vacation and will return end of the first week of Feb.

Russia: would you have razed that city if your comp would not have crashed?
Only if that was your true intention, then I can reload the game for you, I guess. Unless you are ok with the current situation of course.