The Dance of Civilizations [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread Pt1]

[Robert]

I don't know where the Ottoman player is, but I'm going to sleep.
If the Ottomans agree to just continue, I need to agree upon a timeslot to launch the game with the Ottomans. (they must anyway get time to finish their move within this only 11 hours lastin move)

If we agree upon a reload of the Inca last turn, then we must arrange a good reload spot for the Inca b/c they deserve the change to play last turn again. (they can't be the victims of this problem.)

Tomorrow moring I'll be behind my laptop for 1/2 an hour, then I'll leave for work.
Perhaps I can launch it from my mobile phone though.

[Robert]

Korea, read my post 2208: it is allowed by the rules.

[India (DoC)]

I don't feel like arguing, but actually I'm at "peace" with Byzantium at the moment-I did not even kill his puny chariot even if I could have done it any time . We are at peace in game terms, but naturally we are not at peace in character, since none of us wants peace.. or not even want to try to talk about it

[Korea (DoC)]

as i said , based on your agrement with india byz , then we should throw out hte rule all together, no need for rule if htere are excpetions.

[Robert]

1. @Korea The rules say that it is allowed to agree upon a new turn order. If the Ottomans and the Russians can agree, then that's ok. No pressure on the Ottomans to agree. If they can't agree I will reload the login from the Inca. It's then up to Russia to miss one turn in 1360 or to wait till the Ottomans played in 1365. (or even: attack in 1360)

See the bold part:

Rule 03. Civilizations that are at war or want to declare war have to observe the turn order which is set the turn before the war starts.
Thus: no double moves during wartime or when declaring war. Players are free to agree on a new turn order if all involved parties agree and this new turn order is published in the organization thread and all involved parties publish their agreement there as well. Every player gets at most 24h to make his war moves. The host will pause the game if the turn is about to advance in 1 hour while any player involved in the war did not have a chance to play his turn. When 24h have past the player just missed his turn. If the 2nd player in the turn order misses his turn he'll be first in the turn order from that moment on.

2. @Russia: The double move exploit has caused zillions of problems in a zillion pitboss games. History shows that games collapse because of no good double move rules, or b/c they are not obeyed. Beyond the Pit almost collapsed because of it, but eventhough it continued, it never recovered.

It's impossible to be sure during all those wars we have during a game, that there are no exploits done. It's not possible to be sure yourself. Perhaps you did something that gave you an advantage without you even knowing.
Not to mention that we most probably can't even agree with each other wat an exploit will be an what not. (getting back in to raise you tax slider to react on an action done by the other player during his movement, an exploit or not? not a question, it's an example. don't answer it please ;-))



3. @St Jon: Your examples have nothing to do with the double move question. Whatever someone can do within one turn to which the other player cannot react is always good and allowed.
The double move can perfectly cope with the amphious landing.
An amphious landing is only allowed if you follow the correct turn order. (just like any attack)

And it can still succeed if you follow the turn order as well.
There's no problem there.
No problems with modern units either.

You are mixing up the advantages modern units give to an attacker with the advantages a double move give to an attacker. The first ones are perfectly acceptable, the 2nd ones are an exploit and a game breaker. Despite the fact that they both can have the same in-game result.

It's as with a nuke.
It is allowed to hit a 10 stack army of your enemy with a nuke to remove it.
It is not allowed to hack his password, go into his civ and disband the 10 unit stack.

Now your argument on double moves would equal to: "because it's allowed to remove a 10 stack army with a nuke, it's also allowed to hack into his civ and disband the army. Same result, thus both allowed"

Nope, advantages b/c of a game mechanics exploit are forbidden, advantages of clever use of the proper use of game elements are not forbidden but encourags

[Byzantium (DoC)]

Well yes St Jon, I remember you arguing that, but that wasn't what was agreed in our rules. And you are distorting the issue. The rules don't ban "declare war + move + attack + take city, on one turn" they only ban it when the player also moved last the previous turn. Blizkrig of declare, move and attack in itself is definitely allowed.

I think Egypt is right. We have to wait and hear from Ottoman and see if something can be sorted out which works for people and gets us going. In a few more hours of course Ottoman will have had his 24 so Russia could have moved anyway - which would be a bizarre twist!

I think it is important that we remember that nobody had intended any wrong, and nobody is talking about anyone being punished/penalised. We just need to ensure that the Ottomans don't end up damaged by their war opponent having moved, and then declared war and moved again, without them having a chance to respond. Rightly or not (respecting what St Jon says) our rules say he has the right not to be harmed by such a move.

Its the harm that matters. India and I are double-moving against each other all the time at the moment, but we agreed it didn't matter at the moment, and so aren't following the letter of the rule for the sake of an easier life all round. So there is not much we can do but wait for the Ottomans to comment on whether this has caused them any real harm.

[St Jon]

I brought this exact scenario up on the set-up thread. The double move rule as it stands cannot cope with amphibious landings and things will only get more unworkable with modern units and their greater movement range. What Russia did, in my opinion, does not constitute a double-move just uses the greater movement range of Galleons than land units can manage during wartime.

I cannot see what is wrong with, declare war + move + attack + take city, on one turn. To stop it you build scouts, spies, caravels, subs, etc rather than render a perfectly legitimate tactic of blitzkrieg attack illegal.

[Egypt (DoC)]

We have a rule that spells out what can or cant be done.

A rule agreed on before game started.

So it does involve me..


Why dont we just remvoe all the rules agreed on at start and allow individuals to decide what to do.

I know i am not liked here but this is ridiculous.

I just thought we let them figure this out for themselves first, it's their war. Seemed like a good idea to refrain from joining in the discussion, which could make things overly complicated. If they manage to come to a gentleman's agreement, that would be the easiest solution, right?

This has nothing to do with you personally, so don't take it that way please, I have no dislike of you at all. I'm sorry if I agitated you, was not intended.

[Orb (DoC)]

Playing your turns back to back is not a problem if your not planing to go to war. From my understanding the problem occurred on the second turn when you declared war and moved in. If you would have waited for the Ottoman to play his turn first then we would not be having this talk but since you did not allow the Ottoman time to play befor you declared war what you did is considered a double move.

We also have clear cut rules about double moves which SHOULD be enforced.

[Russia (DoC)]

The way I understood the rules it is illegal to EXPLOIT the double move to get an unfair advantage. Which I did not do.
Playing 2 turns after eachother should not be illegal in any sense.

[Korea (DoC)]

Korea, this is between Russia and the Ottomans, it's not a rule change, they are trying to find a decent solution with the least hassle for both parties. Let's not muddle their attempts at this by complaining about something that you are not involved in

We have a rule that spells out what can or cant be done.

A rule agreed on before game started.

So it does involve me..


Why dont we just remvoe all the rules agreed on at start and allow individuals to decide what to do.

I know i am not liked here but this is ridiculous.

[Byzantium (DoC)]

I for one would never pretend to be Dutch

[Orb (DoC)]

I belive so.. you might have a very good disguise, but simply there are not too many "places" to hide . I might be mistaken though.

If it helps I can tell you that I'm not CS or am I????

[Orb (DoC)]

I don't think anything should be done until the Ottoman respond to what has happened. If it means we have to wait then so be it.

[India (DoC)]

I belive so.. you might have a very good disguise, but simply there are not too many "places" to hide . I might be mistaken though.