Beyond the Pit -Argument and Debate Thread

[Rasputin]

just keep the game going at all costs

[Rasputin]

yes the ones who want the game to continue are al lhappy as long as it does at whatever cost . the ones who want to play for fun are the ones who will always rember this game and the decisions made by others.

[St Jon]

yes the ones who want the game to continue are al lhappy as long as it does at whatever cost . the ones who want to play for fun are the ones who will always rember this game and the decisions made by others.

Ras,

I acnnot work out with you whether you are trying to be constructive, and offering newbies to pitboss like me advice, or destructive, and just wanting to kill a game you are no longer in?

For the former you have said many enlightening things and said much that has helped me understand what was going on around me and I thank you for it.

For the latter, I really don't understand why you 'care' if BtP lives or dies. You seem very keen on it ending now but why? It seems strange that someone with so much experience should actively seek to bring about the abandonment of a game they are not even a member of. If you bear a grudge against a person or persons in the game then that is not something that should be the cause of these postings but something to be dealt with personally.

An observation.

[Rasputin]

I beleive that the reason there are so many issues with this game and people leave is that it has had the attitude enforced of "KEEPING THE GAME GOING" this is not the DIPLO community i once palyed with, back then we were more about making sure everyone was enjoying the game and things were done fairly.

The PITBOSS system means that the game is progressing while arguments are debated.

This is the main problem with PITBOSS, it needs a HOST who will stop the game regularly and not listen to the people who want to keep charging ahead.

Every debate that has occured in this game had gone on (excelt the MAYA / KOREA amlagamation ) without a pause in the game, and people get told , "it too late now so move on"

This is my concern , this is my reason for posting here.

I care not whether this particular game continues. i care more that people should be posting her ewith their real Logins so we can evaluate peoples comments without it being tied back to the game.

[Black Knight 427]

I have read your reponce to FFs post yet I do not see an answer to what he was asking Ras. If you ask me FF is right on the money on how you have been acting but then again what do I know.

[St Jon]

I beleive that the reason there are so many issues with this game and people leave is that it has had the attitude enforced of "KEEPING THE GAME GOING" this is not the DIPLO community i once palyed with, back then we were more about making sure everyone was enjoying the game and things were done fairly.

The PITBOSS system means that the game is progressing while arguments are debated.

This is the main problem with PITBOSS, it needs a HOST who will stop the game regularly and not listen to the people who want to keep charging ahead.

Every debate that has occured in this game had gone on (excelt the MAYA / KOREA amlagamation ) without a pause in the game, and people get told , "it too late now so move on"

This is my concern , this is my reason for posting here.

I care not whether this particular game continues. i care more that people should be posting her ewith their real Logins so we can evaluate peoples comments without it being tied back to the game.

Thank you,

You have answered my question very well and backed up what I believe is the only way such games can be played. In SMAC/X MP you always have an independent CMN who runs the game. They have no part in the game just administer it. If there is a dispute it is not hurled around on thread it is taken to them to look at the evidence. You avoid all the harsh words publicly and the verdict, liked or not, is known to be unbiased. If someone cannot live with it then they leave the game but not with the ability to call someone a cheat who has used their power to better themselves IG.

Cheers,
FF

[Rasputin]

I have read your reponce to FFs post yet I do not see an answer to what he was asking Ras. If you ask me FF is right on the money on how you have been acting but then again what do I know.

perhaps you need to read closer,.


FF askedspecifically did i want this game to end and i responded in my last line of my post saying i cared not whether it continues or not.

So my main reason for posting is to highlight the problems of what ahs occured here and to make sure any future DIPLO game does not rpeat them.

[The Capo]

I don't think Ras specifically WANTS the game to end. I think he is simply saying, based on his opinion, that at this point the best thing to do would be to end the game and start a new one. Which I actually agree with. I don't know if I necessarily care or not what happens, I just think that ultimately the community would be better served by starting over. I am not in the game so obviously I should have no say in the matter. But my reasons are pretty simple;

1) The game has gone through a period of mistakes, poor decisions, name-calling, "outing" (of the anonymous civs), and what could be considered cheating. Much of this went by with little to no regard for right, in fact what was "right" was often overlooked for what was, at the time, considered "expediant."

2) Many players have left over the course of this game, resulting in a slew of new players.

3) Two civs have been chopped up and doled out without regard for history or storylines.

4) Much of the decision making for this partition of territory was done in an OOC manner, which is certainly against the nature of a diplogame.

5) In the face of these facts, plus the lessons learned by them a new game with less players, with some good rules and procedures in place when similar events are encountered (plus a game in which you give the map-maker time to finish and make sure that no other player knows the map beforehand or ALTERS said map) we will have a predetermined, understood, and agreed upon method of handling the issues that arise.

To me these are good reasons to start a new game. There are, of course, good reasons to continue as well. And I am by no means telling anyone they are wrong for wanting to continue. But my main point is that, wanting to start over, is not wrong in and of itself. I mean, in my estimation, the diplomacy aspect of this game has taken a hard hit the past few weeks. That's all I'm saying.

[St Jon]

Capo/Ras,

I think I now agree with you. I had long agreed with a large part of Capo has said regarding expedience over justice but the last incident - whilst I back Cyber's decision - has really turned me very sour toward this whole thing. I liked the idea and at the start, start for me that is, it looked great fun. Capo with his stories, Cyger with his silly vids of himself, Pinchak as the brutal Mayan absolute ruler and others chipping in as well. I could get into that and write my own silly stories and the fact I was leading a 3rd rate Civ didn't matter. I will play on for as long as it lasts - not long now I think - but I would very much like to play again from the beginning but I really believe a game like this needs an independent Host or at least an agreed set of judges who can be turned to in a dispute, WHILST THE GAME IS PAUSED, and who will decide, based on clear rules, what the correct course of action is. Their decisions should be final trusted to be fair and accepted even if not liked by any particular party involved.

[classical_hero]

OOPS! Sorry classical_hero, I assumed the avatar was a pic of you!

I keep forgetting that Apolyton is 99% male.

I am pretty sure that you are the same Friendly Fire from CFC, so I am sure you hwould have seen pictures of me over at CFC
BTW, that picture is of Ana Ivanovic, very yummy she is. Poly really needs a pimp smilie, like CFC does.

Spain did have a nice pic too once ... but the mods banned it just because Spain hadn't posted enough :-(

Well that is due to the forum rules, since you need to get over a certain amount of posts, but Spain does not have that many, but with all the discussion that is going on, I am sure that Spain could get to the right number of Posts and have Penelope Cruz as Spain's avatar. Don't blame the mods, it is the forum rules, which we all have to go by and since DanQ is supreme overlord here, we must bow down to him rule.

[St Jon]

I am pretty sure that you are the same Friendly Fire from CFC, so I am sure you hwould have seen pictures of me over at CFC
BTW, that picture is of Ana Ivanovic, very yummy she is. Poly really needs a pimp smilie, like CFC does.

What's CFC? I hope you've not made a typo and meant KFC!

[Pitboss Spain]

It is Civilisation Fanatics Center. It is just that there is a user over there with the same user name as you.

[St Jon]

Yes that is me.

[The Capo]

Hey, start arguing! This is the argument thread!

I'm kidding. I get the weird image that BtP is the proverbial band playing on while the ship is sinking. Noble indeed, but not very wise. Perhaps I made the mistake by assuming Cyber actively cheated in first place, which lead to the personal attacks that made the situation intenable. But in my situation at the time that is precisely what it looked like, and while I am sorry I accused Cyber of that I do not think I was entirely out of line for doing so. That set up a chain reaction of events that lead to Vamp quitting, Piercia being split and thus the Japanese cheat which was entirely ridiculous. If the Japanese player is reading this; if you are going to cheat, at least be smart about it!

Having said that, Japan should not have done that. To me there was no good reason for doing so. Its against the entire spirit of the game. When you are in a diplogame the storylines are important, the posting is important, and you can get just as much points from posting and diplomacy as a third rate civ as you can as a top civ. Sometimes more depending on your creativity. When I was leading the Vikings for that week or whatever it was it NEVER occured to me to do that, I did trade resources but it was fair on both sides of the table, and beneficial to both civs.

Now, I'd again like to suggest that a new game be formed with around ten players. We can even use the mod I made for diplogames which has civ-flavored units (so Cyber's cool images would look even more vibrant), inquistors (which will make religion more important), new religions (which will add more flavor to our storylines), new spy promotions (which will make espionage better as well), and even two new civs (Israel and the Iroquois). We can use an epic or normal game-speed to make the game progress less slowly (I forgot which speed we were using, I thought it was Marathon but I could be wrong). We may be able to get Heraclitus back too (doubtful though). This would also give the new players the opportunity to start their civs from scratch, which may lessen the probability of discouragement from playing.

Now, I realize the desire to continue this game. Particularly on the part of the stronger civs. But I think once a new game starts up, with the type of rules and procedures in place to combat the type of mistakes we encountered in this game, everyone will be back to square one and we can FINALLY get over all of this. Just my two cents.

[Pitboss Celts]

I am torn about whether or not the game should continue. On one hand I've put lots of time and energy into the game. Hey, I know I'm not the story weaver like some of the folks here. I have been busy playing diplomatically and struggling to grow my nation. I think I've done a decent job. On the other hand, the game has stalled so badly, it isn't fun any more. I log in every day to make my move because I feel obligated to do so. Has there really been any stories since the whole Sparta incident? No friction between Khmer and Portugal. All other civs are strangely quiet. Maybe it's best to cut the losses, but I still really want to rise up the rankings. Hard to do when something like the Percian incident happens.