Beyond the Pit -Argument and Debate Thread

[Robert]

I've asked Spain to trade 2 New Porgugal cities for Russia's New Sparta claims. (1 city + 1 settler and 2 workers that'll arrive soon + room to expand on NS)

I'll let you guys know the answer.

[Robert]

I have some irons in the fire to work out a deal that's acceptable to all, I think and hope.
Let's now leave this topic allone for a short while.
I'll post here as soon as I have the full suggestion for a solution.

In the meanwhile we can only hurt things if we continue to debate it.

[Robert]

Update: Japan has accepted their part in the solution-deal.
I have to wait for more responses from others first before I can share. Please have patience. This can take a little longer.

[Pitboss Rome]

Rome, can you confirm?

Yes confirmed. I won't comment more since I know you are mid-dealing.

[Pitboss Spain]

I've asked Spain to trade 2 New Porgugal cities for Russia's New Sparta claims. (1 city + 1 settler and 2 workers that'll arrive soon + room to expand on NS)

I'll let you guys know the answer.

As Portugal said they were promised to my by him a long time ago, so they are staying in Spainish hands. I am not going to be screwed out of a deal that was done way before all this crap started. Me and Portugal discussed this as he first discovered New Portugal, so it was a long over due conclusion to the deal.

[Robert]

Ok, That's the last answer I waited for.
I'll respond to Spain in private.

I'll formulate a post later.

[classical_hero]

I think that this game is beyond saving and we should end this right now and start a new game and get proper rules in place so this mess never, ever happens again. I can tell you that I have had enough of what has happened. First of all Percia should never have been disbanded and a suitable replacement should have been sort, but I do fear that none would have come forward to the shamble of a mess that has happened. It does seem me that this gme has been run by amateurs, since basic pitboss rules have been ignored and had they been followed properly they would not have caused this mess we are in right now.

[St Jon]

Regarding Persia, this was handled VERY poorly I must say. Two major points to be made here...

2. Japan should have NEVER been allowed to transfer Persian tech while acquiring those cities. This goes beyond mismanagement of dividing up an abandoned civ. This is flat out cheating by the Japanese player. Seeing as we don't like to reload turns to right wrongs around here... I suggest that Japans current technologies are assessed, and that they become "common knowledge", meaning that anyone can receive them without using a voucher or voltan. This will not only help keep the game relevant for lower score civs, but will also help to negate the underhanded advantage gained by Japan.

I believe you 100% on this. Those techs include Physics and Chemistry which means that Frigates and Airships can be built when others are still stuck with Galleys. Regarless of any other sanction those Techs must be available now to all - not even all the major powers have Physics yet - as otherwise it distorts the entire game, renders the Voucher system pointless and, much as I dislike the word in what is supposed to be a game for fun, is outright cheating pure and simple!

I think that this game is beyond saving and we should end this right now and start a new game and get proper rules in place so this mess never, ever happens again. I can tell you that I have had enough of what has happened. First of all Percia should never have been disbanded and a suitable replacement should have been sort, but I do fear that none would have come forward to the shamble of a mess that has happened. It does seem me that this gme has been run by amateurs, since basic pitboss rules have been ignored and had they been followed properly they would not have caused this mess we are in right now.

I think it is close to it. I opposed the disbanding of Persia from the start. We should at least have tried to get a sub. Korea was really dead without Capo and a merger with Maya the only logical solution. The same did not apply to Persia. True, it could never have won but neither can Russia yet she was kept alive and it thought worthwhile bringing in me as a sub. Much worse off in Tech than Persia, no Gold and no Production. We could have handled this a lot better! Another incident like these 2 recent ones and the game is dead, or at least for me, but I will try one last time as I have put a lot of time and effort into improving Russia and she is better than she was. Others have invested much longer and to throw it all away would be a terrible waste. Cyber is doing his best to resolve this issue as quickly as possible and does deserve credit for trying so hard.

FF

BTW. Very undiverse I know but classical_hero are you really as pretty as your picture?

[Pitboss Portugal]

My advise to all who suggest that we stop this game and start a fresh clean one with all the rules is to calm down and look at the big picture.

Yes i like you all agree that there has been some ugly abuses lately and some ugly fights with some childish trash talk by some players. Yes the game is not perfect there will never be a perfect game some of you who believe that need to wake up and smell the roses and quick. If you want a perfect game well play a SP, but with 18 players what do you expect we will always have differences and yes even with less players there will be conflict of interests.

Also many of you are forgetting that this is the first Diplo pitboss game, in the beginning many of us knew and agreed that the game is experimental. Still we all signed for it and now 11 months later with some much time and effort invested some of you just want give up? Of course quitting is always the easiest way out. Again do not get me wrong i know that the game is far from perfect and correct, but we are learning and trying to undo things as we go. Of course next game will be less broken and with less fights now that we know what needs to be done and what rules implemented. My biggest problem is that we all will have wasted almost an year for nothing if we start a new game. And what makes you think that this will not happen to the next game, play another year just so have some say lets kill the game and start over.

Anyway i felt the need to share with you my observations, whatever the community decides i will follow.

[The Capo]

While what you said is true (I also think nobody should be using their anonymous log-ins for this type of stuff, becuase it defeats the purpose of anonymous play to begin with) to a point you are ignoring the fact that this game has basically ceased to be a diplogame. Its now an OOC land-grab. I've been following the game and virtually EVERY decision is being made in an OOC arena. Further it has ceased to be "fun" in the sense that it should be. Arguing can be fun to certain people, I like doing it, but for the most part people are getting frustrated and upset with eachother. This has gone on for how long? Nearly a month?!?!

I have always held that you don't need an excuse to leave a game. You don't have an obligation to play a game, it's there for entertainment. So my only problem with what you have said is that if people are no longer having a fun time playing, and they aren't really getting involved in the diplomacy/story aspects anymore (and who can blame them?) then you no longer have a diplogame.

The lessons you speak of have already been learned. Before the game starts we just need to have rules that are written down and specific (what they actually say can be debated, but they must be specific). There has to be proper outcomes for any situation (a player breaking a rule, a player cheating, or a player leaving). And honestly I think an 18 player game is far too unweildy, and the map way too large to make certain things feesable (like Russia having territory on New Sparta for example). I only suggested ending the game (did you delete that post Cyber?) because all of these things are happening, and its better just to let it go than to let it continue to ruin everyone's interest in Diplogames. Plus we have a couple of new players who I think would enjoy the game much more if they started out fresh, with their own civ, and without any arguments. That's all.

Plus I'd play.

[The Capo]

BTW. Very undiverse I know but classical_hero are you really as pretty as your picture?

While I'm sure classical_hero is "pretty" IRL, I'm also pretty sure he's a dude.

[St Jon]

While I'm sure classical_hero is "pretty" IRL, I'm also pretty sure he's a dude.

OOPS! Sorry classical_hero, I assumed the avatar was a pic of you!

I keep forgetting that Apolyton is 99% male.

[Pitboss Rome]

Spain did have a nice pic too once ... but the mods banned it just because Spain hadn't posted enough :-(

[Rasputin]

The fact is that this game was doomed to failure with so many people focused on jsut getting the game to continue. No matter what was going on they didnt want the game to end. That is what the problem is. So many people either ignoring the problems to try and keep it going or activily trashing those that want the game to pause during a problem and now that it all gone haywire they want a restart of a new game

As capo said, when it is no longer fun to play it is time to go.

[Robert]

In 2 months time this will all be nothing but a memory.
To me it's everything Portugal said. We've played so long and inveted so much. The game is still fun for me!