Beyond the Pit -Argument and Debate Thread

[Robert]

Capo you couldn't find your anus without an atlas, Maya you are coming close to needing the same help and Cyber you are now suffering a retrogresive episode that requires therapy. I have no time for this and, not that I am any loss to this 'beautiful baby competition', I have had enough! Either you children play the game rather than with your own genitalia or I am out of this.

Dude, you can't both (rightfully) think that our fight is ridiculous and then join the fight by starting to call names on us.
Not to mention of course that you are too late now to join: we're just done :P

[Pitboss Rome]

Thank you children for what has been a salutary lesson in why not to get involved Pitboss Diplomacy games.

Are they really all like this?

No, I joined this as my first Diplo experience back in August, and there has never been anything like this in that time. Lightning doesn't strike twice?

[St Jon]

Dude, you can't both (rightfully) think that our fight is ridiculous and then join the fight by starting to call names on us.
Not to mention of course that you are too late now to join: we're just done :P

You are right and I apologise.

If this fight is over then I am very glad. I hope you are right Rome and that the lightning storm has passed away never to be seen again and that we do have a game again.

[Pitboss Celts]

If we are using this thread to debate rules problems as they occur, please make a note when something is being debated in the organization thread. otherwise, I'll never check this thread.

[The Capo]

I have to say this as a long-time member of the Diplo-community; and I think Cyber and a collection of others will agree with this - NONE of this is anything new. In fact many diplogames (I'd say AT LEAST 33%) collapse, and of the many games that do collapse most collapse within the first 100 turns. So, I know this is excruciatingly annoying, but this is nothing different than normal. Secondly to Friendly Fire; who apologized to me in a PM and here for what he said to me -**** you *******. I don't accept your apology, especially after calling everyone childish you come in and start calling people names yourself.

The debate is important because, whether you all believe so or not, it effects everyone. It is at the heart of the rules of the diplogame, and if you continue without resolving this PROPERLY all you are doing is ensuring it will happen again. To ignore the rules for expedience, or to save a unit, or because you are impatient is not a good idea. Right now you can disagree with me all you want, but in the end I know I am right. Most of you are just impatient *******s who want to continue a game that DEFINITELY should have been reloaded when I called for it. Then again when I called for it again. But you don't want to have to replay a turn or two so you complain about it. Its in the rules, I was right the entire time. For whatever reason I am made out to be an ******* on this issue, maybe its the way I addressed the situation, maybe some of you just don't like me. But that's fine, because I am not here to be popular, I am here to play Civ. And I am here specifically to play Diplogames. According to our rules I was completely right to call for that reload, and I still am completely right that once Cyber intentionally double-moved a reload would be in order. The independent judges NEVER addressed the fact that the rules called for a reload in just this situation.

Then after I agree to continue playing, and Cyber agrees (OOC) to do something and DOESN'T it is becoming increasingly difficult for me to give a **** about the game anymore. I'll keep playing, but I won't give a **** and I'll probably hardly post. And honestly I'll probably eventually stop playing. So thanks a lot *******s, enjoy your ****ing lobby game.

[-Jrabbit]

The independent judges NEVER addressed the fact that the rules called for a reload in just this situation.

The indy judges were asked to rule on the two double-moves, and we did. While reloads to 1635 and 1640 were among the possible solutions, I for one was not aware of (nor did I want to do research on) the game's rules re reload conditions. Especially when Ozzy's description of the issue noted that...

Any reload will be poorly received by the other players not involved in the dispute.

Frankly, this informed my proposed resolution. As requested, we told you who was right and wrong in accordance with the information we were provided.

From my outsider's POV, the rulings were basically used as fodder for continued bickering, both in IC peace negotiations and OOC attempts to move the goalposts. Nothing was resolved, and more players are angry now than when this started. If I were to be asked again at this point, I would say: STFU and play, b1tches.

BTW, the fact that the great engineer survived was a source of much jocularity during our Friday game this week.

[The Capo]

Which is exactly why I wanted Ozzy to post what he was sending you guys beforehand.

Whether or not you think it is funny, the fact remains that I was screwed throughout this ordeal and continue to be screwed (especially as it seems my ally has left the game). I honestly don't know what should be done here, if Maya did in fact leave the game (and change his PW) doesn't that pose a serious problem for the remainder of the game?

[Pitboss Rome]

It would certainly be great to get some clarity on whether Maya is continuing. I very much hope he is. If not, then very sadly we will have to look for a temp sub and then a permanent one.

[The Capo]

It would certainly be great to get some clarity on whether Maya is continuing. I very much hope he is. If not, then very sadly we will have to look for a temp sub and then a permanent one.

I have no idea either way, and am probably more disturbed than you because there is no chance of prosecuting this war with Greece without a Mayan player.

[-Jrabbit]

Which is exactly why I wanted Ozzy to post what he was sending you guys beforehand.

I understand why you feel wronged. I've read the threads (at least the last few pages of orgy and story threads). I'm just saying: Hey, there's a community of 17 or 18 players being affected here. That's really the aggrieved party. Yet no one seems to consider them except as pragmatic secondary support (i.e., fodder) for their ongoing argument(s). More sad than funny.

Personally, I've never quit a Civ MP game in anger. Speaking for myself (and I'm guessing that Ming and rah agree with me), this conflict really highlights the fragile nature of the diplogaming. I love the concept, but the idea of spending several months on gameplay and story-writing, only to have it explode over a spat like this...

Well, it would make me mad, too. But I would play on.

[Robert]

Capo: quit this fight.
Accept he apologizes of FF and apologize in return for what you have said to him now.

If you think I have done unfair things, PM me about it. We're done boring others with it.
I'm not going to accept more of this debate / fight in the official game-threads. You can make you own threads if you like, but don't include the name of this game in the thead-title.

[Robert]

I have no idea either way, and am probably more disturbed than you because there is no chance of prosecuting this war with Greece without a Mayan player.

You can sub for him and play both Maya and Korea in this war.
I can kick him from the game so that you can claim his civ and chance his password.
When he returns you can give him the password back.

Don't count on it.
He has statet nog so long ago that he wanted to 'destroy both Maya and Greece before he left the game' (or something).

The entire reason for this war, including the planning, the borderlining, etc. etc. as planned for ooc-reasons by Pinchak, since he felt like I had cheated with the map.
He has used you in his plans.

If you give me a good in-game reason to make peace with you then I'm willing to sign peace without any damage to you. I'm fine with Korea and Maya merging together.
But only under the condition that you stop the crap, accept the apologizes of FF and apologize back to him.

This has been a great game so far!
Let's now continue.

[Pitboss Rome]

While normally someone subbing for the nation next to them isn't on, nor allies in a war, I think that in the circumstances Capo subbing for Maya is a good option, if the Maya really have disappeared. If would stop the Greeks getting an easy ride of it, which I am sure none of us want. And Korea is relatively small, so it isn't overpowered. And nobody can doubt that at this point in time the Maya and Koreans were working hand-in-hand, so why not let Capo sub? Capo would you be willing? It might give you a chance to continue in some way the attack you planned (though I know it won't be the same).

[OzzyKP]

I understand why you feel wronged. I've read the threads (at least the last few pages of orgy and story threads). I'm just saying: Hey, there's a community of 17 or 18 players being affected here. That's really the aggrieved party. Yet no one seems to consider them except as pragmatic secondary support (i.e., fodder) for their ongoing argument(s). More sad than funny.

Personally, I've never quit a Civ MP game in anger. Speaking for myself (and I'm guessing that Ming and rah agree with me), this conflict really highlights the fragile nature of the diplogaming. I love the concept, but the idea of spending several months on gameplay and story-writing, only to have it explode over a spat like this...

Well, it would make me mad, too. But I would play on.

I don't necessarily think it is a flaw of the concept. I think that we have certain egos involved who clash often. I think so, and Pinchak is right about this, that we have tried for some time to exist with a set of implied concepts, accepted practices, and attitudes instead of firm rules. While most of us don't want firm rules to cover every possibility I think it would solve a lot of these arguments that come up. How we could ever agree on a full rule set... I have no idea.

[Robert]

It's indeed a rule-thing as well. (not everything of course)
When we early on created this game, we had a debate about all the rules. We pretty much agreed on the rules without specifying them clearly.

It was months later when we first hitted our nose when Maya double moved in Korea. (oh irony)
Then we decided to formulate the rules. But we did it not very well. The combination of CS lettings his meaning being lost in translation and the other guys not really checking if I had incorporated everything from the original rules in the setup thread concluded in an not very well formulated rule.

THen there was the double move. A double move according to the setup thread but not according to the official rule.
Then Korea/Maya refered to the official rule and I refered to the setup-thread.
I think we both had a point, but the judges were right to judge against me. I should of course never have token justice in my own hand by 'saving the GE'. I think that I have never apologized to all of you: I'm sorry guys.

Well, then it became a stinky debate indeed.
Ozzy is right: if we create solid rules, that'll help a lot!
I've attempted that by creating a new Double Move rule. Nobody commented on it, btw.

I'd like it to add some more rules regarding the borders of diplogaming, but our last (current?) fight is too fresh to do that right now.

The Capo: I have kicked Pinchak from the game, you can now grab the Mayas and sub for them. Give a new password to the Maya when you login. If Pinchak returns then I'm fine with you giving the pass back to him. After all he has putted a lot in this game as well, including the making of the map. But I fear that he's gone, especially after his remark about desroying both Greece and Maya before he was going to leave the game.