Beyond the Pit -Argument and Debate Thread

[Pitboss Rome]

Oh the temptation to log in as Maya and give something nice to Rome. I'm sure I deserve a nice present ...

[Pitboss Maya]

The Capo: I have kicked Pinchak from the game

You 7ucking pig. I haven't even missed a turn and now you hijack my civ, on top of all the other $hit you have done?!?!

By doing that, the AI moved my units for me. I fully, 100%, know you did this to once again sabotage my war on you.

You pig. You cheating weasel. I want to know where you get the right to hijack my civ.

[Robert]

No, I did it to give Korea a chance to control your civ becuase I thought you had left.
I was wrong, and I am sorry for that.

The game has been reloaded to the second before I kicked you so that nothing has been lost. I am sorry for jumping to conclusions and I honestly am glad that you're back.

My intentions were to give Korea a chance to pick up the Maya as opposite to the Maya being run by nobody. (which would've been a real advantage to me).
I prefer the current situation though, where you just continue.

I hope you understand.

[Robert]

Here's what I wrote before 'kicking' you:

The Capo: I have kicked Pinchak from the game, you can now grab the Mayas and sub for them. Give a new password to the Maya when you login. If Pinchak returns then I'm fine with you giving the pass back to him. After all he has putted a lot in this game as well, including the making of the map. But I fear that he's gone, especially after his remark about desroying both Greece and Maya before he was going to leave the game.

[OzzyKP]

Glad that Maya is still here and glad the game was reloaded.

Play on.

[Pitboss Maya]

Why I'm Done


I was going to come back, but these final gestures by CS have made me realize I don't need the headache that this game has turned into. Before I go however, I want to clarify the reasons I'm out.


1. Cybershy (or Ozzy) deletes my infamous "Noobs Guide to Diplogaming" post. (BTW, be advised that anything you post that the mods at this ****ty website don't like will be censored, it does not have to be obscene, think nazi censorship...)

For those of you who didn't have the opportunity to read that enlightening piece, it basically discussed how the rules for these diplogames are kept vague on purpose (or non-existent), so they can be interpreted as needed for their advantage by certain longtime players. Keep in mind, this "Guide" was written (and subsequently censored) at the BEGINNING of this game.

2. Despite several warnings to Cyber that we needed a solid rule to address the double move exploit, no rule was made. Maya double moves against Korea (no advantage was gained from this, but it was a double move), and FINALLY Cyber decides to write a rule down.

3. The rule as written had more holes in it then a piece of swiss cheese, and several players including myself bring this up. Of course Cyber is always right, so nothing is changed.

4. Fast forward to 1635 in-game. Korea declares war and moves into Greek territory in the same turn. Cyber is quick to call this a double move, which HAD it been, would have required a reload or at least a game pause...

From the rules for this game, written by Cybershy

If any civilization violetes these rules the game will be paused and the concequences will be decided.
If damage has been done then the game will be reloaded back to the last available save on the Pitboss Server.

But no... Cyber does not follow his own rule, and instead decides to double move himself (this gives him more advantage in the war).

5. Three independent and non-player judges are summoned to help mediate this. All three agree that Korea did not break any rule, but Greece did!

Of course Ozzy (who presented the argument to the judges) said nothing of the other game rule which says the turn must be reloaded. So the judges pretty much say that Greece should lose it's Great Engineer, and the game should proceed.

For those of you who are new to diplogames, Ozzy is just as much as a weasel as Cyber when it comes to rule interpretation, and it is no surprise that he didn't mention reload requirements to the judges.

So the game continues, and not only does Greece get to keep their Great Engineer in the form of a golden age, but also gets to keep their double move which allowed extra fortification of the main target city of Korea's attack.

Effectively... although 3 judges ruled against Cybershy... NOTHING WAS DONE.

6. Maya's and Korea's war against Greece depended on the early surprise attack, which was rendered null and void due to Cyber bending the rules to fit his needs. This is not even debatable. Greece (cybershy) then makes all these "remedies" to "fix" the situation.

These "fixes", combined with keeping the clock running without a reload, had the effect of allowing cybershy to get away with the beneficial part of his cheat, while making the possibility of a proper remedy (a reload to 1635) more and more remote with every passing turn.

What really pisses me off about this is that Cyber manipulated this entire ordeal for his benefit, while all along pretending to be a concerned host who just wanted to keep the game going for the other 15 players.

7. Tempers cool off, Capo reluctantly decides to continue, and Maya voices the urge to quit. Maya does not miss any turns however. Korea does.

No doubt Cyber would very much want to get rid of the Mayan player. So he hijacks the Mayan civ, and tries to give it away!!!

Am I the only one here who sees blatant abuse of power here on several levels???

8. Cyber writes a new rule...

Civilizations that are at war or want to declare war have to wait 6 hours after the turn started if they were the last of their opponent(s) to play their turn during the last turn. When all opponents have moved before those 6 hours have passed the player can play as well.

Thus, a civ at war or intending to declare war in the current turn can play their turn when:
- His opponent(s) played their last turn after he has played his last turn
- 6 hours have passed since the new turn started
- all his opponents have moved during this turn

The spirit of this rule is more important then the letter of the rule.
Key is: if a player in a (pre) war situation gets advantage because of non-turn-based gaming (where turn-based means: all players move in the same order every turn) then this will fall under the "No double move during (pre) war time" rule.

At the other side: if no damage has been done despite a double-move has been played then we will just continue playing without any corrections.
Damage is done when the player against whom a double move has been played is being disadvantaged in a (pre) war situation.

Confusing at best. My guess is intentionally. HOWEVER, this is the most troubling part...

The spirit of this rule is more important then the letter of the rule.

Now, unless someone is a mind reader, how are they suppose to know the "spirit" of the rule? See my Noobs guide to Diplogaming for more info. Oh yeah... it was censored.

Now some may say "oh come now, you know what is right and what is wrong. You know the spirit of these rules!"

Do I?

This is part of the comment made by Ming when asked to rule on your cheat Cyber...

Plus, based on how many other groups handle this problem, the turn before declaring war is never considered as part of a "cheat" double move. The double move rule is to keep people from declaring war and getting two turns before a response can be made. Yes, the turn before a war is important... but the problems start when war is actually declared. So again, based on your own rules, and the REAL intent of the rule, there is no violation here.

Here's another tidbit from Ming that I think is quite fitting to show how full of $hit you are Cyber with your "spirit" of the rule bull$hit aka ace in the hole emergency cheat loophole...

As far as it being an "implied" rule, I have to laugh. The fact that it was brought up before, and NOT added to the rules (for whatever reason) takes away any argument that it was implied

Then you have the balls to tell me and Capo that under your "new" rule we have warnings? Are you on drugs?

This is the real reason I am leaving. Not only did Cyber successfully cheat, and get everyone (almost everyone) to smile about it, but now I have to wonder when the next spirit of the rule is going to bite me in the a$$. This game is rigged. The host not only cheated which was confirmed by outside sources, but intends on doing so again, and justifying it with a convoluted rule. He then tries getting rid of me under the guise of he thought I quit, even though I never missed a turn. It sucks that more people are not up in arms about this. I just lost alot of respect for most of the players in this game. It also sucks because I have invested alot of time in this game, and was having alot of fun until Cyber couldn't accept that me and Korea got the jump on him.


9. This website blows. I'm tired of "server is too busy". I'm tired of it logging me out every five minutes. Hi ho, hi ho, it's off to CF I go...

[Robert]

Maya, calm down, read my explanation above.
Thanks for your complete write out of what bothers you.
I have made a lot of stupid mistakes, especially lately, But a lot of what you write down is very one-sided as well.

Maybe we should have a phone call to speak about these things.
I'm afraid that msg-board posting will really not help us further here. I"m willing to pay the international costs.

We've both been paranoid to each other, let's try to work things out.
I'm not completely evil and neither are you. We're both people who try to play a game and became a bit paranoid about things.

And one thing we agree about: #9! This forum IS slow!

[Pitboss Maya]

But a lot of what you write down is very one-sided as well.

If you, or anyone disputes ANYTHING I have written on a factual basis, please spell it out.

Ok, I'll admit, there are some paranoid assumptions I have voiced, that cannot be backed up with fact for obvious reasons. However, I feel justified in making those assumptions based on what has transpired. That, or how all of this worked out is a huge coincidence.

I have made a lot of stupid mistakes, especially lately

I would really like to hear what these mistakes are.

Maybe we should have a phone call to speak about these things.

I don't see what that would accomplish.



I will also say, for the record, that the war planned on Greece by Maya and Korea had nothing to do with anything OOC including cheating with the map. The war was planned for three reasons...

1. Korea wanting some more production in the form of Thebes and Knossos, which when looking at the map should have been Korean to begin with.

2. Maya wanting revenge for the AET.

3. Korea and Maya becoming tired of Greeces vassal like treatment of them.

Note: None of the above three things were out of line for Greece from a IC perspective, indeed, it is these things that makes the game interesting.


I would still be willing to stay in the game, although from a vote perspective I probably am now done for, because of raising such hell over this issue(s). It doesn't matter however, I doubt my conditions will be accommodated.

1. The turn is reloaded to 1635, Korea plays first. Maya does not care when it plays.

2. My Noobs Guide to Diplogaming is reposted until solid rules governing these games are written. I feel it only fair to warn newcommers.

3. Work on a set of solid rules is started. There could be a thread dedicated to this so players can comment/vote. I would be happy to help with this.


Last but not least, I will say this. I honestly don't think you are as underhanded as I have painted you lately Cyber. However, I do think that you have manipulated the situation to one degree or another for your gain. To what magnitude, only you will ever know.

[Robert]

Maya: I have sent you answer to your 9 points. (you'll find that I agree with a lot more then you may think )

@Your in-game reasons for a war: Fair and ballanced. Korea and Maya starting a war against Sparta is very well implemented in the game. (I never disagreed with that!)

My mistakes:
- not organizing and writing the rule-set very well.
- safe my GE by a double move

Regarding your 3 issues:
- I have never removed your n00bs guide, I have no problems with (re) posting, as long as it doesn't break the rules of this forum. (no personal attacks, etc.)
- I agree on a solid set of rules. I have proposed a set, please comment on it. I may agree with you that a "spirit of the rule" section is indeed too vague and cause for problems.

- If you can give me any advantage Korea/Maya had that was destroyed and not corrected by:
a. Me giving the GE back to Korea
b. Me bringing my Knossos defence back to 1945-strength (which was not needed b/c my strong defence was not a result of the double move but of a delay b/c of peace negotiations)

Then I will accept a reload (unless it can be fixed by an in-game fix)
I hope that you will accept to continue this game if there are no more advantages that need to be repaired or need a reboot.

The 'suprise' of war was aimed at an early attack on Knossos.
Apart from the fact that I bought legal time by proposing a (fake) peace proposal, me bringing down my Knossos defence to fix Korea's miss of 1 turn (because of a combination of stubbornness and loss of first-move advantage) fixed that.

You have played all your turns so you never have been disadvantaged.

Please let's try to find a solution.
I bring this to the argument and debate thread. (where it belongs)

[Pitboss Japan]

I must say with all that has happened my faith in cyber has been shaken both in and out of the game. I truly hope Maya calms down and decides to stay but even if he does not something clearly has to be done about this.

[Robert]

That's the reason why we should all be carefull when we accuse other people of bad stuff. An image of someone can easily be damaged while it's hard to fix any unfair damage that has been done.

I have done that as well, for which I am sorry.

From the anger of Maya's post I learn that he feels like unfair things have been done against him.
Anger that comes from a feeling to be handled unfair proves that he's not a cheater or dishonest.
He feels the same as I felt a couple of days ago.
I hope that we can relay there to each other.

This has caused a lot of explainable but unfortunate things. When in anger one translates everything that happens to evil on purpose. Most things however do have an explanation. And in this case, I start to believe more and more, everyting has an explanation.

We must now start to buildup trust to each other again.
This starts with the famous Mayan signature: "I am another you"
I'd like to add to that: "We're just sitting at opposite sides of the table"

[Pitboss Maya]

Can you provide positive proof of what units occupied Knossos at the beginning of turn 1645?

[OzzyKP]

I wasn't around much this weekend, but when I got back to the computer I got a very worried message from Capo very concerned that you, Maya, quit the game and weren't coming back. He was really worried also that you changed your password so no one would be able to sub and continue the war. He said he hadn't spoken to you in a while and had no idea what was going on.

Considering even your ally seriously thought you left, it doesn't seem far fetched to assume CS was doing what he thought best for the game instead of enacting some evil plan to hijack your civ. Once you posted here that you were indeed still playing, he reloaded right away no questions asked.

I think that's a good sign that this game is back on track and should continue without anyone leaving.

But then again, I"m just a weasel, so what is my opinion worth.

[Pitboss Japan]

I say lets all take this time now that the game is down to cool our tempers. Lets not make any rash decisions that we will regret later on.

[Pitboss Maya]

But then again, I"m just a weasel, so what is my opinion worth.

You deliberately left out the reload requirement when posting the issue to the judges.

After seeing the judges unanimous ruling on the matter, you disregarded the rule we had in place for dealing with such matters.

You have deleted peoples posts that you didn't agree with, despite said posts not being obscene, or against any of the rules of the forum.

You have in past diplogames done things that are in stark contrast to the guidelines you helped write for diplogames.

These are my objective observations that I feel justify the term "weasel".