Beyond the Pit -Argument and Debate Thread

[OzzyKP]

You deliberately left out the reload requirement when posting the issue to the judges.

I don't know what you are talking about. I suggested a reload as an option when I presented the information to the judges. I also said, correctly, that most people in the game would be upset with another reload.

After seeing the judges unanimous ruling on the matter, you disregarded the rule we had in place for dealing with such matters.

They unanimously rejected a reload. I don't see why you are blaming this on me.

You have deleted peoples posts that you didn't agree with, despite said posts not being obscene, or against any of the rules of the forum.

Paranoid BS. I delete to try and calm you guys down to avoid the non-stop escalation that you guys are so fond of that inevitably lead to someone throwing a fit and walking out. So, in the interest of the game, I delete.

You have in past diplogames done things that are in stark contrast to the guidelines you helped write for diplogames.

[Pitboss Maya]

I have to give some thought on staying or leaving.

I'm really not thrilled about how this all turned out. I'm even less thrilled about how it was handled.

I would be a fool to think that all of this was just "honest mistakes".

[Pitboss Maya]

I suggested a reload as an option

If damage has been done then the game will be reloaded back to the last available save on the Pitboss Server.

Would you mind telling me how this is an option? Looks like more of a requirement.

Guess I'm not reading into the spirit of it.

[-Jrabbit]

I don't know what you are talking about. I suggested a reload as an option when I presented the information to the judges. I also said, correctly, that most people in the game would be upset with another reload.

They unanimously rejected a reload. I don't see why you are blaming this on me.

Ozzy -- I believe the point he (Maya/Pinchak) was trying to make is that you did not tell the judges that the game rules specifically call for a reload. Rather, it was presented as a (non-preferred) option.

Considering that I made my judgment based in part on a strict reading of the double-move rule, the fact that there is a published reload rule was, in fact, relevant.

[Pitboss Maya]

Considering that I made my judgment based in part on a strict reading of the double-move rule, the fact that there is a published reload rule was, in fact, relevant.

Why some people can grasp these concepts so easily and others cannot even after having them explained to them repeatedly is something that baffles me.

Interesting how those with no vested interest in the final outcome tend to understand this stuff without a hitch.

[The Capo]

In light of everything that has happened I have a few things to say about the latest stuff.

Firstly, I was under the impression that Pinchak quit due to what Cybershy told me. Not due to Pinchak's actions. Everything I knew was from Cybershy, so you can't fault Pinchak who apparently played all of his turns. Of course I was concerned that my ally was being played by AI, the cooperation between our nations was VITAL to any chance of success we could have had now in our war.

Secondly, It is extremely disheartening to realize that a reload was presented as a non-preferred option rather than part of the letter of the rule. This is precisely why I wanted to see what you were sending them Ozzy. This could have been avoided had you let Pinchak and I look at what you wrote to them because I would have demanded that the rule be sent to them and the appropriate portions be bold-faced. Clearly the rule called for a reload, and called for a pause which I requested numerous times from Cybershy. I even did it in-game before his double move and he continued anyway.

Thirdly, all of this could have been avoided had any of you listened to me on numerous occasions;

1) I asked that the rule be refined numerous times, even Ras asked. Cyber never refined the rule. It was vague and unclear at best. I followed the rule to the letter, Cyber did not and worst of all did so willfully and knowingly. Which is yet another part of his own rule where he states the mindset of the violator must be considered. Damage was done, he did so willfully and knowingly and yet not even a pause occured, a pause which would have avoided this entire mess.

2) After he did that I asked the game be stopped and I did not play because I knew a reload was in order. Had the judges known this they certainly would have ruled in favor of a reload. I have no doubts about that since it is blatantly obvious. This did not occur. Whether intentionally or not this resulted in the continuance of the game, which resulted in people growing impatient and wanting an easy solution. This lead to even more missed turns and problems. Again all of this could have been avoided.

3) Even after all of this crap happened to me, I told Cyber I'd let his GE live provided he move it into some hills until the war ended. He agreed to this, which was done in an OOC (non-IC) manner. He broke this, clearly showing his only intention behind his acts was to save his GE. This is wholly wrong as I could have killed it three times but did not do so in order to save the game's integrity. Being the host Cyber should be ashamed of taking advantage of my attempt, EVEN AS THE PERSON WHO WAS WRONGED NUMEROUS TIMES, to help save the integrity of the game.

Fourthly, now it comes out from at least one Judge that the rules were not presented appropriately to him and that he based his decision on the written rule of the game. Despite Cyber's change I still have a screen shot of it as it was written at the time of this situation, so we can still look at it. I also believe that I posted it with the appropriate sections pertaining to this matter in bold-faced blue text.

I think considering all of these facts the BEST thing to do is to reload the game to 1635 so I can move before Cyber. You can complain all you want but that is in fact the BEST possible course of action. The game should NEVER have continued the way it did, I asked for a pause multiple times, I even did it in-game before the turn changed so Cyber wouldn't double move and he ignored me (even though its in the rule) and did so anyawy. You can say it will mess things up that have happened since, but honestly those turns should never have been played. You can even say "well Capo you missed a turn in protest," and I'll have you know it was not in protest. I didn't play the turn because according to the rules I shouldn't have because it should have been reloaded. Had I played the turn Cyber could have charged that I got an unfair advantage by seeing his city and the reload would now help me over him, which would have been a smart move (that I considered he would do), which is why I did not move. You can say bull**** to this all you want, but this is the reality of the situation. I again ask that the judges be asked again (this time I can show them the rule since it appears to be beyond Ozzy's imagination to do something like that) to determine whether a reload in 1635 should have occured based on the rule written by the host himself.

There is no question that Cyber gained a HUGE advantage he should never have had, the fact that he wrote the rule he broke, and that he is the host is the most demoralizing part of this whole ordeal. The fact that he unilaterally decided to kick Pinchak out for no reason is equally disturbing and demoralizing, especially to find out that you somehow blame me for this. I only spoke to Ozzy in response to what you said, which was that Pinchak quit. The fact that I've played many games with all of you for nearly a decade is even more disheartening.

[The Capo]

Guess I'm not reading into the spirit of it.

I think it is only possible for certain people to truly read the spirit of it.

[Pitboss Japan]

what i dont get is why we keep fighting about what happened and not what needs to be done now to fix it

[Ming]

Ozzy -- I believe the point he (Maya/Pinchak) was trying to make is that you did not tell the judges that the game rules specifically call for a reload. Rather, it was presented as a (non-preferred) option.

Considering that I made my judgment based in part on a strict reading of the double-move rule, the fact that there is a published reload rule was, in fact, relevant.

Yes indeed... VERY RELEVANT. All three judges were consistent that Capo broke no rule... but that Cyber had. And that is because were all read the exact rule as it appears. If we had been told the RULE ALSO CALLS for a reload, I think we all would have said that a reload was the only option since the rules specifically called for it. I personally said that sometimes, the best interest of the game needs to be served, but I would have said something completely different if that's what the rule actually calls for.

And let's not dump on Ozzy here... he was trying to deal as best as he could with a terrible situation.
I give him credit for doing what he thought he was right. At least he seems to care about the game and all the players. A good lesson for everybody to follow

Two cents from an outsider...

[The Capo]

what i dont get is why we keep fighting about what happened and not what needs to be done now to fix it

I'm pretty sure in my post I did that. Yeah, I just read it, and that's what I did.

[The Capo]

Yes indeed... VERY RELEVANT. All three judges were consistent that Capo broke no rule... but that Cyber had. And that is because were all read the exact rule as it appears. If we had been told the RULE ALSO CALLS for a reload, I think we all would have said that a reload was the only option since the rules specifically called for it. I personally said that sometimes, the best interest of the game needs to be served, but I would have said something completely different if that's what the rule actually calls for.

And let's not dump on Ozzy here... he was trying to deal as best as he could with a terrible situation.
I give him credit for doing what he thought he was right. At least he seems to care about the game and all the players. A good lesson for everybody to follow

Two cents from an outsider...

Alright, maybe I was hard on Ozzy. I just hate making a simple request, and then having it denied only to find out that had it been granted we could have avoided a lot of hardship.

[Pitboss Spain]

Next game just make it always war and we will not have any of these troubles.

[Robert]

Can you provide positive proof of what units occupied Knossos at the beginning of turn 1645?

Yes.
I can hand over the autosave of 1645 and my password, someone could setup a pitboss server, load the game and join as Greece and check the defence of Knossos.

You will find it to be exactly like the screenshot I posted on the first page of this thread. (screenshot is down now b/c my connection is down).

Maybe Ming or JRabbit want to check it.
I'll try to upload the file, which is hard b/c of my connection problems

[Robert]

Yes indeed... VERY RELEVANT. All three judges were consistent that Capo broke no rule... but that Cyber had. And that is because were all read the exact rule as it appears. If we had been told the RULE ALSO CALLS for a reload, I think we all would have said that a reload was the only option since the rules specifically called for it. I personally said that sometimes, the best interest of the game needs to be served, but I would have said something completely different if that's what the rule actually calls for.

And let's not dump on Ozzy here... he was trying to deal as best as he could with a terrible situation.
I give him credit for doing what he thought he was right. At least he seems to care about the game and all the players. A good lesson for everybody to follow

Two cents from an outsider...

Maya and Korea are right, the rule talks about a pause and a reload.
Ozzy did leave that out of his summary. (not on purpose, I'm sure)

But there's more. We also have a practice. When Maya double moved on Korea, Rome double moved on Maya and Maya double moved on Rome we never paused nor did we reload. We found a fix to solve the problem.

Our problem is that we have (had) a rule that was poorly formulated and a practice that had fixed this poor formulation 3 times.
We've had lengthy discussions about fixed penalties for rule breakers, but we never really had about he rule itself and how poorly it was formulated.

Letter of the rule and Practice of the rule are againts each other in this situation.
Sparta has looked at and defended the practice/intention of the rule
Korea/Maya have looked at and defended the letter of the rule

Both of course from the position of their own best interest.
I think that the solution of the judges was fair, without knowing about this practice/letter problem.

Korea/Maya got the benefit of the letter by Sparta having to give up his GE
Sparta got the benefit of the practice by not having to reload the game

I think that Maya/Korea should not try to push things further and also get the reload. Especially since Maya has already confirmed that the DM thing was an exploit of the letter of the rule. I have accepted my loss, please you guys also accept your loss. (which is not even a loss, because you didn't loss anthing in reality)

The problem is that:
- Korea deliberately did not move when the letter of the rule was broken
- this was fixed by Sparta by:
a. not moving for 24 hours
b. toning down his defence in Knossos to 1645 strength to crrect this
- But then Korea did not play his turn again (for non-'fight' () related issues, he just missed it)

The problem here is that Korea has made a few in-game errors after the judges have ruled, which he now confuses with ooc-problems.

- Korea not killing my GE but using it as a tool for peace negotiations: he did not knew that I could start a GA even while my GE was not in my territory and guarded by Korean guards.

- Korea missing a turn and thus his chance to attack less-defended Knossos. (If he would've missed his turn i 1945 the same would've happened!)

I think that the Maya request to look into the 1645 autosave and check the Knossos defence is fair. If Ming and/or JRabbit (thanks a lot for your help!!!) want to do that, then we can settle that. (I'll try to find a way to provide the save)

Maya / Korea: have I placed and wrong facts in this post?
If not: Ming / JRabbit: can you please reflect on it?

Thanks,

CyberShy

[Robert]

The 1645 autosave can be loaded here: http://apolyton.net/forums/attachmen...1&d=1236590114

Ming / JRabbit: I'll send you my password by PM